Apple And The Future Of Watchmaking¶
Published on Mon, 24 Sep 2018 10:00:00 +0000
This week we're talking all things Apple Watch. Stephen sits down with Ben and Jack just a few hours after they received their Apple Watch Series 4 sample units to get their first impressions and to hear what else they had to say about the Apple Watch and its relationship to the more traditional watches we tend to cover every day. Also, Stephen has a one-on-one interview with John Gruber, the proprietor of Daring Fireball, the premier blog covering all things Apple. Enjoy.
Synopsis¶
In this episode of Hodinkee Radio, hosts Stephen Pulvirent, Ben Clymer, and Jack Forster dive deep into the Apple Watch Series 4, examining its significance as arguably the most important watch introduced in the last decade. The conversation explores the tension between traditional mechanical watches and smartwatch technology, with particular focus on whether the Apple Watch should even be considered a "watch" at all. The team discusses how the Series 4 represents the first truly cohesive vision for Apple's wearable device, with its refined design, health-focused features like ECG monitoring and fall detection, and improved form factor that finally seems to fulfill Apple's original intent.
The episode features an illuminating interview with John Gruber of Daring Fireball, who offers a unique perspective as both a watch enthusiast and tech journalist. Gruber articulates how Apple strives to make the "nicest" product in every category, but the Apple Watch remains the one product where they haven't achieved this goal—not because it isn't the nicest smartwatch, but because it competes against the entire universe of traditional watches, including legendary mechanical timepieces. The discussion touches on the watch industry's response to Apple, the future of mechanical watches in an increasingly digital world, and whether devices like the Apple Watch will eventually displace traditional timepieces in daily wear. Throughout, the hosts maintain that both technologies serve different purposes and can coexist, with the Apple Watch excelling as a functional tool while mechanical watches retain their appeal as symbolic objects, works of craftsmanship, and timeless accessories.
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Transcript¶
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| Unknown | If you want to get a group of watch guys worked up, there are two easy words you can whisper to get the sparks flying. Apple Watch. Case in point, just go look at the comments on my Instagram post announcing that our review of the new Apple Watch Series 4 had gone live. It's a mess. People have very strong opinions about the design, the functionality, and whether or not it's even a watch at all. Luckily for me, and extension, you the listener, I work with some folks who are equally opinionated and really know their stuff. For this episode, I sat down with our founder, Ben Clymer, and our editor-in-chief Jack Forster, both of whom have been wearing and reviewing the Apple Watch since its earliest days. We get into what the watch industry's response has been, how we each wear the Apple Watch, and what we think it tells us about the future of watches at large. We've also got an interview with John Gruber of AppleBlog Daring Fireball, who, in my not so humble opinion, had some of the hottest and most interesting takes on the series 4 of anyone who reviewed it. Regardless of where you stand on the Apple Watch, there is no question that it's the most important watch introduced in the last decade. This is one hell of an interesting episode, and I think you're gonna really enjoy it. I'm your host Steven Pulverant, and this is Hodinky Radio. This week's episode is brought to you by Hook and Albert. Stay tuned later in the show to learn more about this global travel brand and their range of bags, leather goods, and accessories. You can also learn more at hookandalbert.com. So we're here on the day that the embargo broke on the Apple Watch series four and we ran uh my review, my week on the wrist on the site. I have our founder, Ben Clymer. Hello everybody. And our editor in chief, Jack Forester here. Hi everyone. So both of you guys know the Apple Watch pretty well. You've both been kind of covering this this space for a while, right Yeah, I think that's uh I think that' |
| Unknown | s fair to say. I was actually uh thinking about that earlier today, and I I've I've had a chance to see every single iteration of the Apple Watch from the very first one all the way up to series four, and I think Ben has too. I I have, yeah. We were Hodinky was |
| Unknown | uh the only watch publication invited to to the launch of the the very first Apple Watch in two thousand what was that, fourteen? Uh yeah, fourteen. September two thousand fourteen. So so that story ended up becoming what is still our most popular story ever. Super surprising. Not super surprising, but also a little surprising. Yeah, yeah, I guess. And that was a story that was it was basically something along the lines of what does a like a real watch guy think of the Apple Watch? Uh and I took live photos and kinda comp lared it to to some similarly priced Swiss watches and that that was a big one |
| Unknown | for us for sure. And I think your your first take, Ben, if I remember correctly, was you were a bit bit s a bit skeptical as a as a died in the will watch guy would be. Yeah, I mean well it it's not a watch, |
| Unknown | right? And I think that remains true. So we we got a lot of things. Um I mean it it's it's you know, it's a digital peripheral that that happens to sit where your watch normally does. It does tell the time, so it is a watch. Um but it's much more than that, and I said that early on, and I think that remains true. But the one thing that I was really impressed by and as I said in that story was that the the build quality of the accessories, uh the accoutrement, uh the bracelets, everything that went with it, uh was just so far superior to everything that I had seen in the sub-5,000 range. You know, when you looked at the bracelets of which I'm one of which I'm wearing right now, you know, the millennise bracelet with a magnetic closure is such an elegant solution to that. Obviously, you can't have magnets near mechanical watch for the obvious reasons. But you know they they really nailed the little things, uh even in that first gen. Yeah one |
| Unknown | of the things I remember most vividly, and I can't remember it was if it I think it was the very first Apple Watch, the um adjustable link uh bracelet. Oh yeah. And then Cartier came out with it very recently. Yeah, on the new the new Santos. Yeah. You know, I uh there you you said uh uh just now, Ben, um that uh it's it's not a watch, it's a peripheral that happens to sit on your wrist. But there's an argument, isn't there, that a mechanical watch, at least as you know, you and I and a lot of watch lovers tend to consume it, that's not really a watch per se either anymore, is it? It's a symbolic object that represents a certain level of connoisseurship. It's way of presenting yourself in the world. Um it provides a certain level of social engagement with like-minded people, but it's not it's not a watch in the way that a watch was a watch in the nineteen fifties or nineteen sixties anymore. Yeah, I think that's fair. So are we saying not |
| Unknown | only is the Apple Watch not a watch, but is that where we've gone with this? We're we're what, like four minutes into this recording and Jack has already gone to the Apple Watch proves that watches are not watches anymore. |
| Unknown | Uh yeah. I I think you're right though. I mean I who am I to argue with Jack Forrester? Uh I'm not gonna argue with him for sure. I |
| Unknown | mean I mean like quote unquote luxury mechanical watch? |
| Unknown | I mean uh there are obvious uh obvious differences, of course. The functionality is very different. The kind of functionality you get out of it is very different. How it functions as a social signifier is very, very different. Um it's it's something that you wear on your wrist that tells the time, as Ben said, but it also does much more. And there's there's really uh no way in which uh any mechanical watch, despite attempts to kind of cobble together um, you know, notifications technology with you know mechanical or quartz technology. Uh there really isn't any way to duplicate it with a mechanical watch. And I'm very, very comfortable with the idea of having very, very different kinds of things that sit on the wrist but that we still call a watch because you know, um uh a Paddock Philippe uh you know grand complication is not a watch in the same way that a G Shock is a watch or a Timex is a watch. I mean these things have almost nothing to do with each other except for some incidental similarities in technology. Um but I'm perfectly happy to think of the Apple Watch as a watch that just does a bunch of very differ |
| Unknown | ent shit. Yeah. And I I think ultimately, like the way that I view the Apple Watch versus my mechanical watch is is, you know, the the Apple Watch is functional. It is cool looking. I think it's has has become cool looking. I I didn't I didn't love some of the the early iterations, but I think you know with the the flattened case profile and the rounded edges and this you know gold bracelet that I'm wearing currently I think it's actually a nice interesting looking thing. Um you know this is this is function. You know, and as we're sitting there in our you know, Jack and I went to go see uh some folks at Apple today to pick up our our sample units. And we're sitting there and th this woman who is head of health, I guess, for for Apple, is basically telling us about the EKG or I guess the electrocardiograms. Yeah, the E C or the ECGs or ECGs. Um that that this watch. Both are correct. Yeah. That this watch can uh can can do for you, you know, at whenever you want. Uh and I'm just thinking, wow, you know, my my parents, my father just turned seventy, my mother's sixty eight, it's just like I want my parents to be wearing this, you know, so that if there is an irregular heartbeat of some variety, uh that they're notified. And so and that has always been the crux of what the Apple Watch can be and will be. It's it's all about health healthcare. And so for me, my father owns a a beautiful red 1680, my mom owns a a Chopard and a Day Chuss and all that. But ultimately, as they advance in age, I want them to be wearing an Apple Watch. And I think that is is the the power of of what Apple is created. Trevor Burr |
| Unknown | us Yeah, it's funny. The Apple Watch was uh something whose purpose and identity identity was not entirely clear in the first iteration, and I don't think that's terribly surprising. Um you know, it was kind of kind of similar to the reception that the iPhone got when it first came out. I can remember uh a conversation that I had with someone in the switch w Swiss watch industry uh when the first iPhone came out. And this gentleman said to me, I asked him what he thought about it, and I I I won't name his name or what company he worked for, but he said, uh, oh yeah, you know, uh the blackberry is always going to be a serious business person's tool uh the iPhone is a toy for my wife which is a horrendous sentiment to express on a lot of different levels but it certainly shows lack of foresight about the potential for the device. We are talking about a Swiss. Indeed. Indeed. digital lives um and a uh uh a presence that for better or worse keeps us connected in in all sorts of ways. And I think the uh I think the Apple Watch is finding slowly an identity that's kind of unique to its identity as a as a a piece of wearable technology and the the intimate connection it can make with uh uh with health especially. Um, you know, as Ben has said, I think it's I think it's gonna be a very, very powerful part of the uh value proposition of the Apple Watch moving forward |
| Unknown | . Yeah, I mean you you just said finding its identity, right? And it it took the iPhone a little while and it took it a little while to reach a level where it kind of met our expectations in in certain ways. Uh you know, we've talked before I know off off Mike about like the days before cut and paste, you know, and like the days before you had apps, like an app store. Um one of the things I I think the series four really brings to the table here is it's the first Apple Watch that to me feels like it's really firmed up that identity. Like the series three felt like, oh, now we have cellular, but it's basically a series two with a couple other little upgrades and cell service. Yeah. Uh this is the first Apple Watch to me that feels like it really from the ground up, like deeply integrated, embodies what the Apple Watch w is and probably going forward will |
| Unknown | be. I thought one of the interesting things about uh series three though was uh there was something that happened with the user interface um you know where Apple was able to sort of identify the things that and I think this is something that you just have to find out from from putting a product out in the world. They were they were able to sort of put up at the surface of the user interface the things that they could tell people were most interested in. So suddenly it becomes a really, really useful fitness tool. And I think that was a real paradigm shift for uh the Apple Watch, and something very important in it in its finding uh you know wider acceptance. I mean, I often wear an Apple Watch on my right wrist as a fitness monitor, essentially, as a fitness tracker, and a mechanical watch on my left. And now with the addition of um you know things like real-time EKG slash ECG, which is not it's not present right now, but the sensors are all there and it's rolling out in terms of functionality on a software basis. What is it uh later this fall. I mean |
| Unknown | that's fairly incredible. It is. It it really is. And I think what's interesting to note is that in the beginning, you know, they Apple made such a strong push to have these on the the wrists of Anna Wintor and Carl Carl Lagerfeld and Beyonce and all these kind of like really poppy culture folks. Uh and that seems to have subsided a little bit. I mean it's still very much there. Yeah. But it's organic. You know? Uh it's it's not it doesn't feel like, you know everybody has to have the the new Apple Watch the day it comes out like it did that that first time around. And obviously we went from having solid gold Apple watches, which was insanity, uh but awesome, obviously. Yeah, yeah. Uh to to There was a guy in China who bought two of them for his dog. Remember them? I remember that. Um so you have the solid gold apple watch and then you have the ceramic apple watch, which I had, which was fourteen hundred dollars. Right. Uh which is insane for something that is in factt basically exinct. Uh which was a beautiful object still. And now there really isn't an addition. I mean there's the Ermez product which is different, but there's no addition anymore. Uh and it's funny to see the the focus really, really shifting in a concerted way from fashion to health healthcare. Yeah. And this year we got the the |
| Unknown | gold watch, which both of you are wearing and which which I reviewed. And that kind of takes the place of this sort of like premium material, you know, uh addition. But it's not actually a precious material. And it's and it's the same price importantly as the stainless steel models. This is the first time the stainless steel, the space black, and the new gold finish are |
| Unknown | all I mean th I find the whole gold thing kind of fascinating. You know, I mean uh except for a couple of things like well, like you know, like the first the the gold uh Apple Watch edition. You know, gold is is really used by Apple as a uh as a colorway rather than as a uh precious material. Right. I mean uh we we asked about this um earlier uh I don't know exactly what their P V D process is. I suspect it might be titanium nitride, which is a very |
| Unknown | Continuing on from the idea of this being a watch or not a watch, uh we got some comments on social media asking why we're covering this and and in the comments on our own site to be fair. Um some people saying this is a computer, you guys aren't a tech blog, what are you doing? Um I have my own opinions, but do you guys want to share like why why do you think this is something A we should be covering and B why we can maybe add something to the conversation? I really want to know what Ben th |
| Unknown | inks about this before I say anything because he's spearheaded uh covering fearless leader. Yeah |
| Unknown | . So I mean f for me, you know, I I look at I look at watches holistically and what they mean to to people at scale, not just you know the knuckleheads that read our site, the guys that are obsessive over it, but people that you meet on the street. And so seldom do you have the opportunity to kind of hit outside the normal playing field uh in which we're we're normally playing, and that is to the watch enthusiasts, the guys that want the luxury products. Apple has been wonderful for watches. It's been wonderful for us. It's been wonderful for watch brands, even if they don't recognize it. They got people talking about watches and the the risk is real estate in a way that nothing else could. I mean, Apple's the largest company in the history of the world. They are doing stuff in a way that that even |
| Unknown | Rolex can't can't compete with. So Ben, let me pose a question to you. You say it's been it's been good for good for watches, I think is uh if I could paraphrase that. I think the Apple Watch has been definitely good for watch culture in that it's gotten a whole generation of folks uh ding. I don't know how to turn that off. Well, there you go. I think it's definitely gotten a a generation of folks interested in having something on their wrists that were not interested in having something on their wrists before. However, it has not necessarily been good for a certain segment of uh watch manufacturers and watch retailers. You know, so if you're trying to come up with a plausible offering uh in the three to one thousand dollar range, you know, you're competing with the Apple Watch and uh it's it has not at not actually been a great thing for some companies that I I |
| Unknown | would challenge you on that even. So you know, I would. So Joe Thompson, because he's Joe and he's brilliant, he he had wrote this wonderful story about how the share price of fossil, which is a multi-billion dollar American centered company, uh is now roughly a tenth of what it was the day um the value of it was uh roughly a tenth of what it was the day that the Apple Watch came out. And I I've I've re-quoted that several times to people in meetings and, I said that recently to the the basically the president of Movado, uh who also sells watches in the you know sub five hundred dollar range, and he said, Take a look at our share price over the past four years, and it's gone up significantly. And then you take a look at Daniel Wellington at MVMT, who That's a real that's a real acquisition. But correlation is not causation and we can't assume that that's the only reason that things are clear. And I think, you know, fossil that's a whole nother conversation. But I think that there are there have been creative people that have been able to ride the wave of young people getting interested in in the RIST as real estate and sell analog looking watches, Daniel Wellington, basically, and turn them into wonderful businesses. So I I think the th this isn't like a death knell for anything below five hundred dollars uh if if you're doing it well |
| Unknown | . Yeah, you know, I've always felt it's it's uh the the argument that the or the fear I've never really felt that that's true. It's you know, it's kind of like saying that uh uh combat boots are going to uh prevent anyone from ever buying uh really nice uh uh pumps uh because they both go on your feet. You know, I mean different things serve different purposes. |
| Unknown | That is very true. That's very true. And I I I think also like the when you look at the landscape of of of watches, there are hundreds of Swiss watch brands, of which less than 10% actually make anything themselves. And I I've long said that like if the Apple Watch kills a few brands, I'm kind of okay with that. Because there's a lot of bullshit out there that like we just don't need. And so to to thin the herd a little bit is is kinda okay by |
| Unknown | me. Yeah. That's true. I mean that could have positive ramifications kind of all the all way the way down the line. Trevor Burrus Right. |
| Unknown | I mean things will things will be high qual the the products at scale will be high quality again. If you get rid of the people that are repackaging Chinese movements and EDA movements, et cetera, as their own, then you've got interesting watches. You know what I mean? Then you've got people doing things the right way, the way that that we want to to see things done. Trevor Burrus Yeah. Just as an aside, I don't think |
| Unknown | there's anything wrong per se with uh you know necessarily using uh you know Chinese-made movements or EDA movements, and I think that they enable a lot of people to get involved in mechanical horology who otherwise would not be able to afford it. I know. You know, when I was in graduate school and didn't have a pot to piss in a Seiko five was a big deal for me. Really? I thought you were raised very wealthy. Oh gosh. Yeah. I was uh you know cut off pretty early on because of you know I was uh disowned for bad behavior. I understand yeah I understand yeah deserved it. But you know uh to move with uh to move on with the anecdote um with discreet haste uh I found it uh I I found it pretty fantastic that those watches out there existed. Now, you know, the great thing about um Seiko, of course, is that you get over delivery on quality even at the very bottom. And I think that we do see a plethora of uh you know it's very easy nowadays to launch a brand And get something out there and at least make, you know, get people to see it. And I and s a lot of that stuff is not particularly distinguished from a design standpoint or a quality standpoint. And if those kinds of things happen a little bit less because intelligent smartwatch design is happening a little bit more, I agree with you, that's not a terrible thing at all for the consumer. Which is what I think smartwatches in uh in general and the Apple Watch in particular, because it's so well done, you know, uh that's that's not that's not a bad thing. That's not a bad thing. When things get too easy, people get lazy, and laziness is not good for watchmak Aaron Powell That's very true. Boom. Man, that's a poll quote right |
| Unknown | there. I wish we could do poll quote. Maybe. Why not? Um You know what what happens when that pressure gets dialed up though? I mean we've we've talked a lot in the past about like when the Apple Watch is gonna get that like you know I hate the phrase, but like a killer app. Like when when does the watch become indispensable? When does it become something that you basically have to have I mean when it can potentially |
| Unknown | save your life is it's that's getting up there. And the ability to detect that it's actually a fall and not you clapping your hands or banging your fist on the table for emphasis. Which you do all the time. Yeah. But there's a very serious problem for Jack. Bam. No, but there's a very complex series of parameters that have to be there's there are multidimensional parameters that have to be sampled by the watch, including the accelerometer and a G force sensor in order for it to tell that you're falling and uh you know not um you know not not banging on the table, not clamping your hands. And uh you know the ability of the watch to um you know kind of integrate with healthcare systems, um, you know, the the fact that that the E E C E C E K you know is uh is is baked into the sensor technology now. I mean you know, keeping me from dying is c is a is a a killer app in in the most genuine sense of the word. That's a super dope app right there. It really is |
| Unknown | . Jack nailed it. You know, once health like once insurance companies pay for all Apple Watches 100% of it, like game over. You know, like Aetna, for example, currently provides all of their um subscribers 50% off on an Apple Watch. Right. 50% is subsidized currently. People don't take advantage of it. The communication isn't really there. I don't think that like the model is really figured out in in a way where enough people are are are aware of it to to make have it make sense. But once the other insurance providers in this country and and abroad start saying, Okay, you can have an Apple Watch for f |
| Unknown | Okay, so game over at large, right? And like I don't think anybody would dispute that. I mean, I think we're already at the point, right, where it's like kind of game over for most people. But when does it become game over for nerds like the three sitting around this table? Like when when do you actually either Are we nerds? Day to day. Two of us are. Yeah. Two of us. You decide which two. Uh gonna recuse myself from that. When when do we get to a point where like you only put on your paddock chronograph to go to a really nice dinner or you only put on your speedmaster when you want like a special moment. In and day to day you're just wearing an Apple Watch all day. Like when do we get there? I |
| Unknown | I think I think not too far off. But I think also like, you know, I I have a vintage car that I love to drive. I could never drive it every day. I love it and like, you know, I I enjoy driving that far more than my my Audi that has airbags and satellite radio and all that. But like the the vintage car is for a special occasion that doesn't mean I'm gonna spend any less money on it or or love it any less. It just means that it's it has a purpose. And I think the Apple Watch for Death Trap that's a lot trap for sure. Big time. But uh I think the Apple Watch will could become that for for our generation where it's like I'm gonna wear my Apple Watch every day. That's my Audi with airbags and etc. Uh and then when I go to uh my friend's black tie wedding or you know Jack's funeral or something like that, I'll put on a pathway just get it. You'll never die. You're immortal. You' |
| Unknown | re immortal. At least you know Ben's A gonna go to your funeral and B he'll wear a paddock while you're gonna be able to be that that that's what's that's what's gonna make my uh final moments uh peaceful. Well at least Ben's coming to my funeral. Um yeah I mean Jack, for you where does where does that wine come? Increasingly compelling a value proposition from Apple with the with the Apple Watch. It's just getting more and more interesting with every iteration. And there are two possibilities. One is that you uh just wear you wear the Apple Watch on the wrist that you would customarily wear your mechanical watch on, and you wear a mechanical watch for special occasions. Uh and you hope that you don't have a uh potentially fatal arrhythmia on those special occasions. Uh the other possibility is that you do what I do uh a lot of the time, which is wear the Apple Watch on your right wrist as a fitness tracker and as a health aid, and you wear a nice mechanical watch on your left wrist every day. Maybe stacked with a sexy leather man bracelet in order to uh balance things out a little bit. Which you are currently wearing. Indeed. I want the readership to know that Jack Forrester is wearing a leather man bracer. I mean look, as uh uh midlife crises go, it is much cheaper than a Ferrari. Um it's uh and and uh for me that works. Um I it doesn't work I know it doesn't work for everybody and uh you know I've been doing it probably for two years now, uh more often than not. Uh and it still feels a little strange to me sometimes. But um with the notification technology, health technology, you know, again, it's like there's I like closing those three rings every day. I mean, I know it sounds ridiculous, but you know, you can look down and have a graphic representation of whether or not your general lifestyle choices are consistent with a better level of health. Yeah. And I I think a perfect analog to this for you, Stephen is then you said |
| Unknown | you said uh you have to commit to it. You have to. You have to. I mean I so I've I've got the the series four on my wrist now and I haven't set it up yet really as a series four so it's got all the functionality of the series three. And this thing's dinging, and I you know, in in the middle of this podcast, I don't have to turn it off. It's complicated. But uh it's not that hard. Setting a new Apple Watch up does stinch. It's it kind of stinks. Yeah. I mean it it it's incre it's incredibly powerful, as Johnny and many others have said. It's the most personal device. You can make this thing however you want it with a thousand different straps, et cetera. But it takes time. And like I'm a busy guy and I just don't I don't take the time to to do that because I know I'm not going to wear it that much. But what I what I was going to say to you, Steven, as a Leica shooter, right? So you totally you love shooting your Leica. But how many sho how many photos, what percentage of the photos you take are on your Leica versus your iPhone? Oh a much smaller percentage. Right. Much smaller. And that's this. You know, you shoot your Leica for for fun and you wanna you know wanna go out and and that's your activity for the day and you get some sort of emotional satisfaction from it that you don't get from shooting on an iPhone. Aaron Powell Yeah, I always think it's it' |
| Unknown | s interesting to think about where watches as mechanical watches as a mainstream object go. I mean I think most people are not going to actually wear something on each wrist. So do do you do that? Well I think that's |
| Unknown | because most people are not both mechanical watch enthusiasts and uh you know interested in the technology offering that uh you know Apple in particular Most people aren |
| Unknown | 't either. What's that? Most people are not either of those. But not either of those. Yeah, that's that's true. I mean, but do you think, you know, it's it's different when we talk about real watch enthusiasts. What do you think about the guy who, you know, gets his first nice bonus and casually buys a Rolex or an Omega or something? Like, is that still going to be behavior that people learn and they buy those things and again it's like buying a vintage car and you you know only take it out on the weekends or you only wear it when you get dressed up, like you know, s you own a really nice pair of shoes or a really nice suit. Or or is that kind of like casual watch association gonna fall away and it's gonna become a much more con |
| Unknown | sequen So if I'm somebody who is uh you know looking at uh the currently unobtainable many um you know current Rolex sports models, you know, if I'm if I'm looking at a Milgaus or I'm if I'm looking at a you know GMT Master or a um you know an an OP thirty six, you know, that's a watch that I'm planning on wearing every day. I'm not interested in having it uh be displaced. And if I'm a hardcore watch enthusiast, I'm certainly not uh thinking about it uh the potential of it being displaced by a certain piece of technology. So you buy into being part of that world, you buy into being an enthusiast in that world. And along with that often as a form of as a kind of self-definition comes a rejection of a wrist-born, you know, uh um technology. You know, the Apple Watch the Apple Watch just starts starts to look like the bad guy, regardless of how beautifully it's designed, and it is beautifully designed, and regardless of how well the user interface is uh implemented, and it's extremely well implemented at this point. Uh you reject it not because it's bad in and of itself, you reject it because it's part of the identity of being a watch guy. And those people are always are are you know, uh somebody for whom the rejection of uh you know, anything after you know 1969 when Seiko introduced the first quartz commercially available quartz wrist wristwatch, somebody for whom their identity in a certain sense is wedded to the rejection of that kind of technology and the embracing of analog technology, they're going to be a very hard person to convince. You know, people who uh enjoy wearing a mechanical watch on a daily basis for what it represents symbolically and for a sense of the sense of intimacy that you get with a mechanism that you can't get with an electronic object, uh they're not going to start wearing uh I I don't think they're going to start wearing an Apple Watch to the exclusion of a mechanical watch. So but wearing the uh wearing the Apple Watch as a fitness tracker, as a health aid, I mean especially as you get older and I'm not getting any younger. Uh that becomes more and more comp |
| Unknown | elling. Yeah, I think there's there's kind of two things I I want to pick up on here. One is this idea that it's not going to displace your watch and the watch becomes a special occasion thing? I wonder more does it just become another watch in your rotation? And you know, I occasionally, you know, I rotate an Apple Watch in, I know quite a few people who do. Is that a behavior that you think actually still gets you most of the benefits of the Apple Watch? Trevor Burrus to Ben actually |
| Unknown | because he uh he was the one who said uh you know uh fairly early on you have to commit to this thing in order |
| Unknown | for it to make sense. Trevor Burrus you do. And I I think to answer your your question, Stephen, I think that that can happen and you know I used I've used all my Apple Watches for a period of maybe six months when I go to the gym or when I'm out on the weekends. Yeah. Uh I said in my Apple Watch review series three that you know when I wanna go out driving in in an old car, to not have to bring my phone was really wonderful. And so I could I could phone home, I could, you know, get the important neat messages to me um when I needed and I had GPS which which is great without having to bring the phone. So I think it will become for me part of a collection, you know, and there will be you know, today I was wearing a Daytona ear I'll probably wear this for the next four or five days, you know, through the weekend. And then next week uh I fly to to Paris on Monday for a fancy event and I'll be back in a paddock or a veteran or a longa or something. Fancy. Very fancy. Really, really fancy. So yeah, I think it it'll just become part of a collection. It's like sometimes you want to wear a perpetual calendar, sometimes you want a time only or a chronograph. It's just it's a different set of comp |
| Unknown | lications. So Ben, can we talk we've talked a lot about the functionality and uh how the functionality of the Apple Watch doesn't necessarily displace the functionality of the mechanical watch. They provide different kinds of experiences. And we want both. Um of the things we haven't talked about is uh how how we respond to it aesthetically as a design object. And I'm I'm really, really curious to know what your thoughts are on that. Uh and and what your thoughts are in terms of the evolution of the Apple Watch as a design object. Trevor B |
| Unknown | urrus, yeah. Gotten progressively better looking for sure. Uh you know, I think if any other company came out with this product, I would be duly impressed, you know, with with the fit and finish and the overall aesthetic of it. Uh you know, this is not as good looking as a Daytona. It's just not. Uh it is not as attractive as any Patek Philippe or many Patek Philips. You know, aesthetically speaking, it doesn't speak to me the same way that that that traditional watches do, but there's a reason for that. Is that this has a life cycle of one year. Right. And these Patek, you know, the Patek I was wearing the other week uh was from nineteen sixty seven and still looks great, you know? And I think you have to consider that, that this is a three hundred dollar object versus a whatever, thirty thousand dollar object. Um and it's designed for that. And I think for for what it is, I think it's wonderful. I mean, relative to the other smartwatches in the market, it blows them away, and I don't think anybody would disagree there. What's amazing to me to sidebar a little bit is that there's nobody really competing with Apple at this level in the smartwatch game. In terms of the whole package. In turn in terms of the whole package. Like you know, with with the phone. Aesthetics, UI, functionality. I mean there are there are some other really high-end phones that that that can hold a candle to the iPhone for sure. Some might even say better in some way, certainly in laptops and other peripherals. Uh but with with smartwatches, there's nobody |
| Unknown | . So in terms of the Apple Watch being a nice uh object, I think someone who's written really interesting about interestingly about this is uh John Gruber on Darry Fireball. Yeah, who uh we're gonna have on the show in just a couple minutes. But yeah, and has has a lot to say. On uh there's a wonderful uh quote from his uh story. Apple doesn't uh just want to win the race, they want to win it in the nicest looking car. Yeah. mean I actually Which I |
| Unknown | say that I have that paragraph flagged right here on my laptop in front of me, uh waiting to to pull that out. Um yeah, before we have John on the show, I think we we should talk a little bit about his review and his review of the Apple Watch series 4 is less a specs rundown, less a like rigorous road test, and more kind of a thought experiment about what this watch is trying to do and then how well it achieves |
| Unknown | Yeah, I thought his story was fascinating because uh I thought uh from a technology perspective, uh Stephen, for instance, your your uh review of the series four was really, really fantastic in terms of breaking down you know, so if you're a tech person, you're a watch guy, but your coverage of this uh product was fantastic from a technical standpoint, and I found it kind of fascinating that Gruber, who's a quote unquote tech blogger, uh his uh that's some of the most interesting coverage I've seen of the Apple Watch from a wat |
| Unknown | ch guy's standpoint. I completely agree. Yeah. So his his basic argument is that you know every product Apple makes is the nicest, you know, that word in italics, the nicest product in that category, whether it's the iPhone or the iPad or or whatever. Um and that the Apple Watch is the first product that isn't. And the reason it isn't is not because it's not the nicest smartwatch, but because it's not the nicest watch overall, and that that's really what Apple's competing with. And that for various technical reasons, um they just can't fit the technology they need into a case that could, you know, match up against something like a Rolex. The form factor sort of necessarily has to be different. And how that must drive Apple crazy. Like they really, you know, know what they're doing. We know there are multiple watch guys at the very senior level of Apple. Uh right at the top. And you know, John John Gruber mentions both Phil Schiller and and Johnny Ive. Yeah. Um and how it must drive them absolutely nuts that they they know what they want this thing to be and they're getting as close as they possibly can, but it's like still just a little bit out of reach. Yeah, |
| Unknown | you know, I think the Apple uh the Apple Watch and smartwatches in general, I think um gosh, I think they have to be comfortable being their own thing. I mean, can you imagine how bizarre it would look? I mean, we know Apple could do this technically. The uh Hermes collaboration they did. I mean it's uh it's smaller than any of the other Series 4 watches. It's super nice looking. They've done some really, really amazing stuff in terms of matching colors on the dial with matching colors on the straps. Very, very tough to do in the color space that's available for you know for these displays. And it's a beautiful object in its own right. But to be you you put that you think about putting something like that in a gorgeous mid-century, you know, uh case from Paddock or Vacheron with, you know, like r really cool lugs and a wonderful step bezel and a little bit of asymmetry to it. It would it |
| Unknown | just wouldn't look right. Correct. Aaron Ross Powell There's no doubt that I'm sure it's frustrating to Johnny and Tim and the whole gang that over there that like this is not the pinnacle of horological design or horlogical elegance, like the phone certainly is and the laptop certainly are. Um but I I think Jack nailed it. I mean it's like you can only do so much and it just wouldn't make sense to have something with functionality like this, like in a corn devash uh case, for example, from Batron. Yeah. I I think it is frustrating, but Aaron Powell I think so too, and I think they've gotten kind of as far |
| Unknown | as they probably could with what they have. Um and I I think there's something funny about the little horological kind of nods in watch OS 5 and in, you know, in the interface from the very beginning. The use of the term complications. The use of the term complications, but then we go on to like, you know, the sh the basic shape of the hands on most of the watch dials kind of refers to to the Nautilus or the Royal Oak. Um, you know, we got in that original uh version of Watch OS, we got the micro timer uh face that kind of played off the original Tagoyer, pocket watch micro timers. There's there's all these little winks and nods and they kinda remind me of the old like the original IOS design, like the really skew morphic with like your notepad look like a yellow paper that was torn at the top. Skewomorphic. Define. As something something virtual that looks physical. Yeah. It's the attempt to replicate the idea of like a physical thing, like how the game center looked like a green felt top table. There's something sort of like cute about it uh that seems to have like a knowingness uh that I find sort of charming since it's it's you know it's implemented in a very elegant way. |
| Unknown | Yeah. That was a pretty wonderful window into what working at Hodinky is like right there. Stephen throwing out a term, Jack saying define it. Yeah, that happens a lot. |
| Unknown | Apropos absolutely nothing at all. Talking about the first um first uh iPhone made me rem does am I the only one who remembers the beer pouring app? Beer pouring app? Yeah, there was a beer pouring app. I do |
| Unknown | remember that. Yeah, good. It's also funny to think about Apple pre-iPhone because like we have this vision of them as the most valuable company in the world, which they currently are. Yeah. But pre iPhone, they were not. You know, like |
| Unknown | I remember you had to go to uh comp USA. There were no Apple stores. You went to a comp USA and there was a corner that was all the Apple products. And this was when there was like, you know, there would be a huge this is when you bought software off of walls, which is bananas. But like, you know, the whole store would be PC software. And you'd go to this little corner and there'd be like five things for it. It' |
| Unknown | s fucking Carmen San Diego every time. Only Carmen San Diego. Where in the world is Carmen San Diego? Uh here. She she's here. She's she's here. U |
| Unknown | h joining us now, Miss Carmen San Diego, ladies and gentlemen. Yeah, I mean you're right |
| Unknown | . The iPhone completely changed what Apple is. Yeah, but I think like, you know, I'm I'm obviously a f a fan of Apple. I had an uncle that worked at Apple in the eighties and it's been You did I did. And it's been a part of Yeah. It's been a part of the family for a long time. Uh but it's amazing that like they've been able to create a company that is enormous, in fact the largest, uh that like people like me and I think the other folks in this room really feel like a personal connection to, which is something that I think about all the time with Odinky. Like how do you get people to want you to succeed in a way that that you're happy, but also they still like you |
| Unknown | ? Alright. So before we get too far away from this, uh we're gonna cut to my interview with John Gruber. We're gonna talk about his story, his perspectives, try to get a little bit more uh about his his thoughts on the new Apple Watch and kind of what it says about Apple today. So we'll cut to that and then uh we're gonna come back at the end with some final thoughts from uh Ben and Jack before we leave you. And now we'll look at this week's sponsor. Since 2001, Hook and Albert has been making bags and accessories for the modern traveler. Their products are designed to make hopping on that next transatlantic flight just a little bit easier, and as someone who's traveling constantly, I really know the difference between just traveling and traveling well. There's nothing worse than getting a beautiful new bag and realizing it doesn't work for what you need. And at the same time though, I'm not walking around the airport with something that doesn't look and feel good. When Hook and Albert approached us about sponsoring Hodinki Radio, we thought it would be fun to bring in a bunch of their latest products so that we could just put them to the test ourselves. Over the next few weeks, you'll hear our impressions about how they fit into our lives and how we think they might fit into yours too. Stay tuned and for now you can check out their brand new website at hookandalbert.com. Alright, let's get back to the show and my conversation with John Gruber. Thanks so much for joining us, John. It's good to have you here. Do you want to uh tell our audience, just in case there are some people who aren't familiar with you, who you are and and what daring fireball is? It |
| Unknown | 's hard to explain. Uh uh Daring Fireball is my website. I'm the only person who writes there. I've been doing it since 2002. Uh I largely write about Apple. Uh it's I don't really think of it as an Apple site. I just think of it as like the place where I write about uh things I'm interested in relating to technology and design in particular. Um but in large part over the last sixteen years, uh much of what I've been interested in is Apple stuff. So I'm I I I you could think of me as an Apple columnist. Okay. How did how did you first get drawn to writing about Apple? Well, I've always loved Apple stuff. I've always loved computers. I've loved computers ever since the first time I've seen one. Uh you know. And in particular, Apple's computers have always I've always been drawn to all the way back to the Apple II era just because they spoke to me. You know, I think that uh people who you know people who listen to this and and read Hodinky know know, you, know you d, which watches do you like the most? You you can't explain it, you know. And that's how I've always felt about Apple computers. Like there are things I can explain about it, but at a at a broader level, fund |
| Unknown | amentally it they just speak to me. Yeah, that that makes total sense. I think you're spot on. I think our readers will and and listeners will totally understand that sentiment. Um is there, you know, kind of jumping right into it then, is is there something about the Apple Watch that speaks to you as well or do you think of it as as kind of embodying something different? Well, |
| Unknown | I I I've all I've worn a watch since I I don't know what grade, but somewhere around seventh or eighth grade I started wearing a watch every day. And in in in that era in high school, um you know, and this was for me, this was the eighties, um at first I wore like uh I had a couple uh or at least one, I forget how many, but uh like a Casio digital watch. Um and but it was also the era of swatches and swatches became you know uh it super super popular and I had at least one swatch. It's funny that I don't remember because I w I remember every computer I've ever owned, but I'm not a hundred percent sure on my early watches. Um but I've always loved watches uh and I liked digital watches back then. But then when I really, really started getting into um I I I prefer like a traditional mechanical watch over the Apple Watch, just as a watch. Um but that said uh you know to me Apple Watch is the the neatest, coolest, nicest digital watch ever made. And that's that's really how I think about it. So it's one of the watches I wear and it is sort of a a weird thing because I feel like Apple Watch wants you to wear it all the time for the fitness tracking and I don't |
| Unknown | . Yeah, totally. So so do you how do you rotate it in like what other watches are you rotating it in with and and how how does it kind of balance out with your other watches? It's it varies |
| Unknown | . I I do I I guess if I'm quote unquote working, I tend to wear my Apple Watch because I really, really like the feature that mac OS has now where you can unlock your Mac with while you're wearing the watch, you just wake it up and it just wakes up automatically. So like it it once you get used to that, like if I'm wearing one of my other watches and and then I So like when I'm working I wear my Apple Watch. So like weekdays, a lot of times I'll just wear Apple Watch and then weekend I'll wear uh something else. Okay. What what other watches are you into out of curiosity? Uh so I have three right now. Um my a very favorite, my baby, is a uh 2006 Rolex uh submariner. Um no date, uh which I painstakingly I bought I think in twenty thirteen and I painstakingly wanted what I wanted very specifically, I knew exactly what I wanted, is I wanted the the previous generation submariner, the because it's smaller. I don't like the new thicker lugs on the the latest one. Um but I wanted the most recent one with the old case with the smaller lugs and the most recent possible movement and and the thing I love about the regular submariner as opposed to the date one is that it only has two lines of text. Like the don't even get me started. That superlative chronometer, officially certified superlative chronometer, drives me crazy. Because what does that mean? Officially certified uh superlative chronometer. Those are four big words. And what does it really mean? It means it keeps good time. Right? And what does the Rolex brand stand for? It stands for this is a great watch. It keeps good time. Like you don't need that. I don't disagree with you at all. So that's my baby. Um and I I absolutely love it. And then my other two are it's crazy. It's I've got two of them from I I I I actually don't know how to pronounce the brand name. Hal Halios |
| Unknown | ? Helios? Oh yeah, yeah, Helios for sure. James, James on our team loves Halios. He has a couple of them and and you know he,'s had them in for review and you know, they're they're really great quality and they're super cool. |
| Unknown | Yeah, it's it's and it's funny because uh I was gonna get the C Forth and it was this is the first generation C Forth and uh he he came out with the other one first and uh I couldn't wait so I bought it and I actually like it better than the C Forth |
| Unknown | . Oh cool. It's nice when that happens when it's not the opposite way, which is what usually happens |
| Unknown | . I absolutely love it. And it's crazy because the Laguna is sort of a big chunky uh it it it it's way bigger than any watch I ever thought I'd like. And so I bought it because I got I I just couldn't wait for the C4th anymore. I thought, you know what, I'll buy this. I'm probably not gonna like it and I'll sell it or something. And I it it's now my second favorite wat |
| Unknown | ch. That's awesome. You know what we'll you know now get a l a little bit into your review of the the Apple Watch series for and I think this is kind of a perfect perfect segue is that like you're really a watch guy, which I think some people may not know, but your your story kicks off coming from the perspective of somebody who who really understands kind of traditional, I would say like luxury and in scare quotes watches, your your take, if I can summarize it quickly, is is sort of that one of the challenges with the Apple Watch is that Apple is really good at making things that are are nice, and you use the word nice very specifically. And that the Apple Watch, if it has a a you know, kind of place where it falls short, is is in niceness, that it can't quite get to the level of niceness as as something like your Samariner can. Um how how did you start thinking about it that way and kind of come to this this way of thinking about the Apple Watch? You know it's funny because |
| Unknown | I I I i the racket that I'm in is I I've reviewed every version of Apple Watch, you know, and it's like when new Apple products come out, part of my job is you know, I review them and it's a privilege and I'm I'm in this position where I get review units in advance of the public from Apple and I I get private off the record briefings to talk about this stuff with with Apple, you know, product marketing uh folk I have never quite felt like I ever got Apple Watch before this one, the series four. And and if if there's ever been like a swing and a miss in my review history, I really feel like my first Apple Watch review from the original was totally amiss. I I didn't I it was a it was not a good review. And in fact, I I think I re-reviewed it like six weeks later, which I've never done before. And I did that because I I just was so dissatisfied with what I had written. It doesn't even matter why. I just didn't get it. And you know, in the year since I I I've I've focused mostly on how is this new one better than the previous one. And they have, like when they came out with the series two, it was definitely better than the original. And the series three was definitely better than the series two. I mean, it added the LTE support and a couple of other things, but that's really all I focused on. But this one, when I wrote about the series four, it was the first time it really clicked in my head. I was like, I get it. I see where this I see what this product is and where it fits in the market. And and it's all about the ways that the series four is clearly I I think und indisputably a nicer watch than than the old ones. And and you can lump all the old ones together because their differences were really technical, whereas what it looked like and what it felt like on the wrist, you know, was the same between all models. And if anything, the series three was kind of worse in that regard because the the sensor array on the bottom, the thing that reads your your heartbeat and everything else, was actually like uh some d number of tenths of a millimeter thicker than the older ones. And so it really didn't even sit on your wrist as well. It actually s you know popped off your wrist a little bit more than the previo |
| Unknown | us ones. What is it about this version that you think makes it nicer in in terms of hardware, software, the the kind of whole exper |
| Unknown | Well uh it's it to me it is it is by being it it's seven tenths of a millim the case is seven tenths of a millimeter thinner, which does you know i uh people listening to this know that's pretty significant for a watch. I And tried to explain in my review to people that d you know who read my site who aren't watch people that I know that sounds like a little, but it really is a lot. And it's just I I honestly feel like they've done other things too. Like I re I can't prove it and they you know, there's they d Apple doesn't like to explain it, but I feel like they've subtly changed the angle of the the little slot where the the strap goes through. You know, like it just sits better on the wrong interesting and it there's just and it it doesn't matter maybe maybe I'm even wrong that they changed the angle of the strap thing it doesn't matter because the the all that matters is does it sit on your wrist better and it does and Apple talking to them privately even says yes, this we we this watch is designed to sit better on the wrist. And anybody who's listening to this knows what that means. And it it does. It and that to me fundamentally is nicer. And then the second thing that is nicer is just that the fact that the display goes corner to corner. You know, it's that's clearly what this watch was meant to the Apple Watch design was meant for from the get go. And they just couldn't do it technically until now. But it just looks nic |
| Unknown | er. Yeah, I mean one of the one of the things, you know, I wrote about a little bit in in my review and I think a lot of other people wrote about is this is the first Apple Watch that really feels for for me and apparently for others that is kind of cohesive and feels like it has like a direction it's kind of gesturing in and it's it it really feels like a complete kind of 360 product in that way. |
| Unknown | Do you do you feel the same way? Yeah I do and I I compared it to the iPhone as a product, you know, and generations. And I really think it's i i I maybe it's a coincidence and maybe this is just the way Apple rolls, maybe it's not a coincidence. But the the i this is the fourth generation Apple Watch. And to me, it it compares really interesting to the iPhone uh four. So the iPhone generations, there was the original, and then next year they came out with the iPhone 3G, which addressed a couple of specific things, mainly three G networking, you know, the other the original only had edge, which was incredibly slow, and it added GPS. I mean, can you believe that? The original iPhone didn't have GPS. Right. Then the 3GS came out the third year, which was faster. It was because the 3G didn't even have a faster processor. They actually just kept the same processor from the original. But the 3GS came out with a faster processor and it uh the camera shot video. Can you I mean two years of the first two years of the iPhone didn't even shoot video. I mean that's crazy. Wow. But so basically what you had was the original which came out and and really shook things up and was like, you know, uh this product that totally changed the definition of an industry. And then two years of updates that just addressed the problems with that original one, and then a fourth generation, which was all new. You know, the iPhone 4 came out. It had the glass back, it had the steel frame, it had a retina display. I mean, the retina display is really that's all you need to even say. I mean, it's it's it was just like night and day. Um and I feel like that's what the series four Apple Watch is, and I feel like that's what Apple Watch's history has been like, where there's the original and it was tremendously flawed and s just too slow in certain ways, just way too slow. And then they had two years of addressing problems with that original one, mostly making it faster, but you know, adding some features here and there, but fundamentally not really changing it. And then the fourth generation one is when all of a sudden, like, oh, this is what they've been getting at. This is beautiful |
| Unknown | . Yeah, I I totally agree. And and I I think, you know, it's interesting to think about where this continues to evolve, thinking about how the iPhone has evolved. I mean one of one of the the things you talk about in in your review is this idea of becoming the nicest watch in the world. And and I wonder like what do you think the Apple Watch needs to do and what can it do to to compete on that level to maybe become eventually the nicest watch in the world. |
| Unknown | I don't know if it'll ever get there. I think it's sort of like a North Star. Because I I fe I feel like a d or it and again I tried to emphasize in my article that, you know, obviously quote unquote nice is utterly subjective, right? You can't put like you can't say like this is an eighty nine out of a hundred on the nice scale. And for me, I I realize if you could though. Right. But I realize that as a fan of of traditional mechanical watches, like it's probably never going to to me be the nicest watch in the world. But um but I think sitting, you know, being thinner, sitting on the wrist better. Um I the big thing to me that's missing isn't always on display. And I I you know and I get it that you know it's a battery life thing and with the OLED, you know, and I I can't help but feel though that at some point, is it ten years out? You know, is it five years out? At some point there's gonna be something that would enable this to have an always on display. You know, it and that's that is it it's just every time like I always say like sometimes I'll go out and I'll get coffee for me and my wife and instead of taking the carrier so I can hold it in one hand I'll just you know hold one in one hand and one in the other. It's only a couple of blocks to my house. But when I have a coffee in both hands, I can't check the time with Apple Watch. Without dumping a coffee all over your wrist. Right. I can just put it at an uh an angle and I can check the time. Like that's not nice. So there's little things like that. I don't know. But there you know, and there's other things that I don't know are ever going to change. You know what I mean? Like the when when the everyone's you know, if if anybody ever has a problem with their Apple Watch, it's like you know, like you you bang it or something. It's like the screen technically is glued to the back of the case. You know, like when you buy a nice watch, there's no glue. It's Like I don't blame Apple for this. Hopefully there's no glue. Right. I don't blame Apple for this. It is what it is. You know, they're making you know uh but that's not nice. So I don't know. I I just feel like it's sort of a North Star. But I also, you know, like what I wrote about in my review and really was an eye opener. I I know that people at Apple there are plenty of people at Apple who are into traditional watches, including Johnny Ive, you know, who who you know Ben Ben Klymer wrote a terrific profile of for uh Hodinki magazine and you know he admitted it and he talked about his love for traditional watches. So they know what they're up against in that regard. And I think it's kind of interesting. So so what I tried to get at in my review is that I think it's kind of interesting because in phones, in my opinion, Apple is makes so far the nicest phones in the world. And you know, like the there's you know like thinkpads are nice and stuff like that, but I think Apple knows that the MacBooks are very you know, uh inarguably among the nicest laptops in the world and probably the nicest. I think it's interesting that Apple knows that the Apple Watch is up against these great watches when it comes to it. And so they're sort of hungry to sort of prove themselves, you |
| Unknown | know? Do you think that's ultimately an advantage or do you think it's it's like in some ways kind of like something like dark whispering in their ear, kind of maybe taking them on a different path. I think it's certainly an advantage |
| Unknown | compared to other quote unquote smartwatches. And I kinda hate I kinda hate smartwatches as a category. I think it's better to just think of them as digital watches, right? Like you know, it it the smart aspect of it is just where, you know, digital watches have always had features, you know, like weird things that a that a mechanical watch can never have. I mean like like uh a perfect example calculator watches, right? Like that was a really cool thing in the eighties. It was kind of amazing that you could have a calculator on your wrist. It was cause it wasn't that long, it was only like fifteen years before calculators were even a consumer electronic item. And they were big and they were on your desk and they took big batteries. And now all of a sudden you could put one on your wrist. But among digital watches, I think it's an advantage for Apple because I feel like other companies, their eye is only on other smartwatches. And whereas Apple has this like the bar is so much their their bar for what they're trying to do is so much higher |
| Unknown | . Yeah, I I I think that's really interesting. I mean so so the last the last question I want to ask you and then I'll let you go is what would it take for the Apple Watch to become something you would wear every day? Like what would Apple have to do to make this something that you would, you know, maybe you still put your Rolex on for special occasions, going out to a nice dinner, hanging out with friends on the weekend, but like really your your daily wear full time becomes the Apple Watch |
| Unknown | ? I don't know. Uh it that's a really good question. And it's like I feel like if I was uh if I was better at answering that, I I'd be working at Apple rather than writing about 'em. Right? Like I I'm not so yeah. I don't think I'm so good at coming up with answers like that. I'm better at seeing what what's shipping and talking about it. You know, I I I can't think of anything. To me, I there might be something, right? Like that's the that's why I'm hedging on this answer is you know, five years from now the Apple Watch might be in a place where I really don't put uh my Rolex on other than, you know, like to to really dress up and go out to dinner or something like that. Um and I don't know what it is between here and there that it would be. I do like it. I like it as a product a lot. And and it's a lot of ways I really do see it as like a traditional tool watch. Like I said, like I I really love wearing it while I'm working so that I can, you know, move between my MacBook and my iMac and just have it wake up and not have to type the password in. And I love getting during the day, right? Like when I'm working and I really want to be responsive, I love getting alerts and my notifications right on my wrist and I don't have to take my phone out of the pocket, you know. But I the thing of, you know, dealing with technology all day, like it's so it's just so weird that Apple has gotten into watches because the one of the things that I really like and and about mechanical watches is that they're not electronic. Like I love getting away from something that that takes a battery or has to be plugged in and appreciating something that isn't like that, you know, at all. And is and the other thing I love about them, and you know, this is everybody who's listening to this knows this, but that they're timeless, you know, that that what makes what makes my Rolex Submariner interesting and nice it was true 20 years ago, and it'll be true just as true 20 years from now. Whereas this Apple Watch Series 4 on my wrist right now, which is brand new and I just wrote thousands of words about. Twenty years from now, it's it's a piece of junk. It's I mean it might have some, you know, you might think like, oh yeah, I remember that, but you're not gonna wear it, you know. Nobody's gonna wear a a twenty eighteen Apple Watch twenty years from now. There there won't be a vintage Apple Watch market in the same way. Right. It won't even work, really. I mean let's face it, twenty years from now the Apple Watch won't even work. It's not you know the the cell networks will be different it',s not gonna connect. If if we're still carrying iPhones at the time, it's not gonna the twenty year old iPhone a watch isn't gonna connect. It won't even work. I mean you could turn it on but it won't it won't even work properly. Whereas you, know, a properly cared for watch, you know, fifty, sixty, seventy years from now will still be working properly. And and that's fascinating to me where what I write about on a day to day basis is this stuff that's really only relevant for the next year or two and then it's gonna be |
| Unknown | Yeah, I I completely agree. It's nice to have something with no no screen, no batteries that you know it's just you and you and the watch. Right. Absolutely. Cool. Well, I really appreciate you jumping on the phone and doing this with us. And uh we're we're gonna have to have you back on for a full episode sometime soon. I think I feel like we could we could talk forever about this stuff. I would love that. And I I'm a big fan of Hodinki, it's daily readings. So thank you very much, John. All right, cool. So we are back now to close out the episode with a couple more thoughts from Ben and Jack, and I'll probably throw a few opinions in there for good measure. But um let's it it's it's been known to happen. It's gonna happen. Yeah. It for sure will happen. Let's talk a little bit about what this means outside of Apple. What does it mean? You know, people ask why we're covering this, all of that. Let's talk about what this means for the watch industry, not watch consumers. You mean what do they think or what does it mean commercially or a little bit of both? I would say both. Like what what do people think? I mean, Jack, I I know you won your famous famously or infamously worthy Apple Watch to SIHH. Yes. Oh, that was such a boss movie. It was so much. I mean Jack walking into meetings with Vachon Constantine sitting down and just like putting his hand up on the table with an apple watch. Well because you know that's what is that |
| Unknown | there were there were two reasons that I did that. Uh first of all, that particular iteration of the Apple Watch I found incredibly useful. Uh I'm actually really, really, really bad with calendar stuff, with dates and times. Uh I remember I uh I mean the the worst example is that I showed up once for a flight a uh a week uh early. Um |
| Unknown | to be clear. So I need a lot of help in that respect. Let me just add a little color to this. So Jack and I have worked together professionally at the same company for about three years. We were we were, you know, often together before. Jack has no idea what's going on half the time. He's the smartest guy I know. But he's clueless. No, no, no. I me |
| Unknown | an, I I'm I can't I can't uh you know I can't argue the point. But only about only about like times and places. Yeah. Everything else is he's got on a container. Everything related to being at a certain time at a certain place is as a closed book to me. So I find I mean I I I I I I regard the uh the the the the uh uh the presence of meetings uh in my in my in my daily life or scheduled phone calls as a sort of colossal surprise. It's not my you know best uh trait professionally certainly but you know so I found the Apple Watch very useful. Sure. So um and I found that iteration of the Apple Watch very useful uh you know under those particular circumstances because about fifty percent of the time that I spent at any trade show is is spent saying I'm so sorry uh I I didn't see this in my calendar. Um turns out Jack just doesn't have a calendar. But the other thing is I think it's really, really important for people not to be afraid of things. And you know, like the industry I think the industry has a very weird relationship with the notion of smartwatches in particular and Apple watches in particular. Uh in in Apple Watches in in particular and smartwatches in general. Um it's it's it's very strange. I mean they're they're they're tools. You know, smartwatches are tools and and in the case of Apple, because this is what Apple does, they've made a very, very beautiful tool, they've made a very aesthetically compelling tool. And if we uh are so um ideologically opposed to the notion of the smartwatch, uh and by us I mean both people in the industry and and watch enthusiasts. If we're so ideologically opposed to this thing that we never actually experience it, then we don't know what we should or should not react to on the industry side. And as enthusiasts, you know, I mean everybody's happy to offer an opinion, but you know, unless you've actually experienced this thing and, you know, tried to get a sense of what it's like to meet it on its own terms and make it a part of your life. I mean, look, everybody can offer an opinion, but not all opinions are necessarily valid, and an informed opinion is more valid than an uninformed opinion. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that. |
| Unknown | So what do you think that means though for the industry folks? I mean, like do you hear people, you know, colleagues we work with in the watch industry, either on the US side or the Swiss side, like do you hear them talking about this thing? Like what are they saying |
| Unknown | ? Um their unique selling point. Uh you know, brands with a sense of confidence in their own identity. Um the Apple Watch is not a threat to them. I mean the Apple Watch is not a threat to Rolex. People wear Rolexes for different reasons. The guy who wears a speedmaster because of its uh you know He says waving around his hand with a speed master. It does, it looks really good. But you know it's like it's it's it's a different experience. And I think the the the the the watch brands that are secure in their own identity understand that. They don't regard the Apple Watch as a threat any more than they regard uh the Fitbit as a threat because they serve a different function. And that is not to um denigrate what Apple does at all. But I mean come on, like you know, we don't I I don't wear a Speedmaster on my left wrist for the same reason that I wear an Apple Watch on my right. Yeah they serve a different purpose. |
| Unknown | I think you're completely right. I think you're completely right. Say that again. You're you, sir, are completely correct in everything you've ever said. Jack's been waiting for that all day, man. No, I I think ultimately he Jack is completely right. You know, I I really enjoy the interactions that that I have with with folks in the industry in regards to the Apple Watch because it is the one time where they're humble in any way. And you know, I love everybody in the watch industry and I'm a part of it. You know, I'm a I'm I'm a a big part of it in in some cases. Yeah, you might be. And uh he's kind of a big deal. Kind of a big deal. That's basically what I'm saying. And sometimes it's just like, oh man, like these are just people take themselves so seriously. Like these are just watches. They're not that important. And when you're talking about Apple, who could literally write a check for basically the entire Swiss watch industry in cash. Yeah. Uh it kind of reminds you that like this just isn't that big of a deal. That like you know Rolex Pat Deck Omega, they're wonderful brands, amazing, but it's like okay, like there there's there's bigger fish out there. And it's nice to nice to remember |
| Unknown | Yeah, and we don't have to get so h I mean the idea of you know uh competing with Apple if you're a mechanical watchmaker, what an absurd concept on a certain level. You're you're not the aside from the fact that they both sit on the wrist, you're making completely different products that appeal for completely different reasons. And uh you know, if honestly if I were running Rolex or Omega, which I don't do right now Um major news breaking soon. But you know but you know uh were were were I in that position in the Swiss watch industry, I wouldn't be worrying about the Apple Watch at all because it's not it's not an existential threat to good honest watch making it. It's different things. It's just not. Yeah. It's a different thing. It |
| Unknown | really is. And I I think most people that that are that have been around the block once or twice or have a a an understanding of what what Apple is and what this this this product is, get that. You know, I think the people that that that push back are those that that live in fear. Yeah. Uh it's like when when your dog gets old and has cataracts he begins barking at everybody because he's just afraid of stuff. Yeah. And I think that that is all the the negative reactions we've seen from from the usual suspects in the Swiss watch industry. They're just they're just afraid. But as Jack said, Rolex, Omega, these guys are gonna be fine, you know, at least for the force Aaron P |
| Unknown | owell And so we we kind of started this conversation by talking about Apple having a really cohesive vision, right? And this roadmap and that this is this is a mature Apple Watch that's setting down a particular path, showing us that health and wellness and and fitness features are probably the future of this device. What do you think this device means to the kind of like broader Apple picture or the broader ecosystem. Like what what does this tell us about those technologies and how they're going to be a part of our lives? Aaron Powell Right now I feel like um |
| Unknown | the Apple that I feel like this version of the Apple Watch is disruptive in a way that uh earlier versions were not. And the thing that I I feel is possibly the most disruptive app moving forward, and it's something that is not yet rolled out. But uh you know the fact that there is an uh ECG application coming out for this device and that the sensors are there that let you actually look into your own body and see whether or not the electrical conduction system in your heart is functioning properly. That's So that does not count as time only, right? No. No. Bringing the watch jokes and bringing the heat. But you know, it's uh it that that's that's uh uh an unbelievable new uh aspect of this uh of this timepiece. Um and I I am comfortable calling it a watch. Uh I am comfortable of you know thinking of it as uh a a watch in the sort of conventional sense of the word. Um but the capacity of technology to look inside our bodies and connect what's going on with us internally to the outside world in a way that's benef that's meaningfully beneficial. This is maybe one of the few instances I can think of where you, know the s,ort of surveillance technology that uh you know modern tech has given us uh has a potentially you know really, really significant upside |
| Unknown | . Totally. Uh Ben, what what do you think about this |
| Unknown | and how it impacts the future of Apple? Aaron Powell Look, I I think you know you can you get a sense of how important the product is uh to Apple by by how they kind of mm categorize things in the in their public statements, right? In in their actual financial reportings. And currently the Apple Watch is not broken out on its own. The iPhone is. Uh the the PCs are. Um the the Apple Watch is still in kind of grouped in with other peripherals, right? That's correct, C. Yeah, that's correct. And I I think that that that tells you uh how how important the Apple Watch is to Apple at present day. Uh I think with time uh it it could be something dramatically different. Uh in the same way that like, you know, it took it took a while for for the iPhone to become the iPhone. You know, it really took three or four generations. And we're just to the fourth generation right now. Right. And Apple did not have the resources that they that they do now back then. And they were still able to create a product that was so far beyond anybody else and so you know ubiquitous in daily life or what has become ubiquitous in daily life, that I think now with all the money and resources and talent that they have, I think it's it's it's all but a sure thing that the Apple Watch will become worthy of its own, you know, kind of vertical when you're reporting financial numbers. Maybe one of these days we'll get numbers. Exactly. Um but you know, I think it's like we we've already seen it. Like, you know, they've reported that that they are the largest watchmaker in the world by sales. Right. Uh and I think that is is really um misinterpreted, you know? And that's been confirmed by Apple that we're talking about revenue. We're not talking about units. Misinterpreted in what sense? So I I when that came out, I remember there's a whole scuttle butt from the Swiss Watchman string, oh that must be units. It's not units. It's sale. It's revenue, right? That's money. Uh and so I think when when you're a Rolex or an Omega or a PatTech or a Langine, which is a billion dollar brand, shocking to most, but true, uh, you begin to think like holy shit, like these guys are, they they're really doing this like of course they're gonna sell a lot because they're less expensive than a long jean or a pat deck or Rolex, but like when you're talking about Apple's making more money with watches after how many years? Four years versus you know, Longine or Omega or anybody else that's been doing |
| Unknown | And you know the great thing about being Apple right now is they're in a position to uh if they want to play a very long game. I mean they're a publicly traded company with all of the pressures that come with that, but they're not answering to any sort of larger management structure that has, you know, other interests or agendas that are uh you know, perhaps you know, antithetical to their own. Uh they can function in a way that I think um most of us can't even imagine. Yeah, and and |
| Unknown | the thing is they do have to answer to Steven. And Steven's reviews can be pretty tough sometimes |
| Unknown | . Tough of fair. You know, I I think to close things out, you know, we will talk about my review. Why not? Um I kind of Stephen, can you tell me about your uh review? Yes, can you review the Apple Watch? I would love to speak about my review. And I raised the subject completely. We should. How great would that be if you published a competing review like six hours later? I raised the subject completely organically, by the way. The subject just came up. So at the end of the review, I I kind of like where I end up with this, which happened, you know, kind of as the story was being developed. There's a way in which I think this Apple Watch makes a stronger case for giving the Apple Watch a shot. You know, there's there's still plenty of people who for whatever reason, whether they don't think they need it, whether they're wed to their mechanical watches, whether they just don't need a watch. Um or whether they just need uh to know that it's time of you know I I think there's people for whom this is a must-have like if you need the health features or you think they're gonna benefit you yeah you should absolutely go buy one if you're an existing Apple Watch user who wants a watch that's a little zippier has a larger screen maybe looks a little bit different, has a couple additional features. Totally. Upgrade, you'll probably love it, you'll be very happy |
| Unknown | . |
| Unknown | To me, I think the the most interesting group of people are the people who for whatever reason, whether it's they don't think they're interested in smart watches, whether it's they don't think they need a watch at all, whether they're wed to their mechanical watches, whatever it is, uh have kind of resisted the Apple Watch temptation so far uh four years. And those are the people who I think really should go out and give this thing a shot. I think we're at a point now where you know, maybe two years ago, if you weren't interested and you were like, I'll I'll try it, why not? You might have ended that experience disappointed for various reasons. Maybe you didn't, maybe you did. I think now you're pretty likely, even if you're skeptical, to pick this thing up and be like, oh shit, this is awesome. Like I'm really gonna enjoy this. And those are the people I'm most excited to |
| Unknown | see. I agree. The the first generation I remember sending an email to somebody at Apple who had asked my opinion on on what it was like after a few days of using it and just |
| Unknown | To be fair, my recollection is that uh you uh set up the watch and it started downloading all of your messages and ' |
| Unknown | cause I want all my messages. Freaked out and turned it off. I wanted all my messages. It doesn't seem that crazy. It's not not a big request at all. It's not a crazy request. But I I I would concur with Steven then like we we've we've hit a point now where this this this product is strong. It's really strong. There's no need to make excuses anymore for for what the this watch is if you are Apple. Not that they ever did. But you could kind of tell they were a little sheepish about it at times. Aaron P |
| Unknown | owell Ben uh this is sort of a a final question for me to you. This is something I'm very curious about. You've been the cheerleader for um probably the most important uh cheerleader on the internet for you know quite a few years now for uh what the mechanical watch represents. Yes, sir. And uh, you know, analog technology, mechanical watches, um the sense of Forging ahead with the anecdote. So So, you know in terms of the dialogue that we have on Hodinki with people who really want that experience, uh, is the Apple Watch too disruptive for there to be a conversation about it on the site? No |
| Unknown | . And with our readers. I mean we made the conscious decision to cover Apple not at length. I mean I think you know oftentimes people come in and attack us as if we're talking about Apple Weekly. I think we cover Apple less than ten times We |
| Unknown | probably cover them three to four times a year. We cover the new watch OS announcement every summer at WWDC. We cover the launch in September, and if we're lucky we get an embargo unit and we cover the product, maybe there's a strap refresh in the spring. So that's three to four stories. It's nothing in the scale in the larger sch |
| Unknown | eme of what we do. And I think and we publish around a thousand stories per year, if not more. And so I think perspective adds a lot here. And I think anybody that criticizes us for for covering the Apple Watch just doesn't get it. And it would be like Motor Trend not covering Tesla, because it's an electric car, not gas power. Which some people w |
| Unknown | ish uh you know, which which for some people is a uh uh it's a hard stop |
| Unknown | . Stephen says they're wrong. Yeah. I mean it's it's our job also to some extent to kind of make the call for what we think is is interesting and what people should know about or might be interested in knowing about. And so like, you know, maybe you're not interested in the Apple Watch. Maybe you think it's a, you know, it's heresy for us to be covering it. That's that's fine. Like then you don't have to read or watch it. We're not making you read or watch anything. Exactly. You've almost certainly shut this off by now so we can say mean things about you. But uh you know, it's it's something we think can be of genuine interest to anyone, regardless of whether you're a diehard watch guy or don't care about watches at all. It's it's fascinating, it's interesting, it's sort of meaningful socially and culturally. Yeah. Yeah, and |
| Unknown | I think ultimately, I mean, like a big big point that that we talked about, the three of us as well as as Will and a few other folks on the edit team is for the second volume of our print magazine, we put Johnny Ive, the the I the Apple Watch creator on the cover. Yeah. Uh and that was that was a move that that we thought long and hard about. Uh and we said, look, like this is And it was actually a kind of tough call. Right. I mean, this is the most important watch period of the last ten years, no question about it. And and Johnny is the creator of it and and we said look like this is this is our decision to put this out there because we believe it's important. And I think ultimately as Steven just alluded to, like it is our job to say like look, like we do know more than you. We really do. I I I know a lot of people disagree, but we know more than you, and we're gonna make the call to push put this out there for you. And that's it. Yeah. And for the most part |
| Unknown | , response is good. We get five negative comments. But hopefully it's interesting, hopefully it's helpful. I mean we we review far fewer products than we see every year. Oh my god, that's so true. I mean the bar, Jack can can attest to this. The bar for doing a week on the wrist with something is pretty high at this point. Like it has to be a product that we think a reasonable number of people might be getting ready to possibly spend their hard earned money on. I mean to be hon |
| Unknown | est for me, dropping off a bottle of VivClico by Messenger is enough. But uh yeah, Stephen uh again, very |
| Unknown | true. Yeah, it's it's uh we think this is something that like you might want to go spend your money on and you might not. And we think it's worth having a conversation like out in open and in public and putting our names and our opinions on the line to say that like hopefully you can learn something and hopefully it can be helpful. You need to |
| Unknown | know about it. Uh and this is from you know, before I joined the company. Um and now that I'm with the company, uh I can basically write about whatever I want as long as it's interesting. Right. And the Apple Watch is interesting. There are I mean, you know, we write about uh, you know, f half a million dollar watches, but we write about them if they're interesting. We don't write about them if there's something if if they're just, you know, half a million bucks because of marketing or because there's a ton of stones thrown on them, unless they're nice stones, which is another story. Um, you know, and this the setting is beautiful. But like you know, from from twenty five bucks to uh you know, twenty five million bucks, uh the only real criterion for Hodinki is is this an interesting thing to talk about? Totally. And I don't think there's any disagreement. I'm actually I mean I'm very proud of that |
| Unknown | . I agree. Um yeah, I don't think there's any question the Apple Watch is interesting. Yeah. And this version more interesting than any previous version. Rainbow Apple Watch. Thoughts. Whoa |
| Unknown | . I'm so in. Jack is that look like. I don't know, man. Is it should we mock that up? It's full center? It's full five X. Rolex Role |
| Unknown | x X Apple Watch Somewhere. Kara just sat up straight and was like, something is happening. She she knows. Um Alright, guys, this has been really great getting to sit down and talk about all of this. Uh I think we've gone over some good stuff. This isn't the last of our Apple Watch series sport coverage. We'll have some more over the coming weeks and months as new features roll out and there are more updates. Like we said, it's something interesting and it's kind of a part of what we do. So I'm glad we could chat about it a little bit. And uh thank you both for joining us. Thank you to John Gruber for calling in so we could get some of his insights and uh yeah we'll see you guys next week Thank you to Jack, Ben and John for joining us. This week's episode was recorded at Mirror Tone Studios in New York City and was produced and edited by Grayson Corhonan. Please remember to subscribe and rate the show, it really does make a difference. Thank you for listening, and we'll see you next week. |