A Look Inside HODINKEE Magazine, Volume 7¶
Published on Mon, 16 Nov 2020 15:32:12 +0000
Our editors share a behind-the-scenes look at how this volume's stories came together.
Synopsis¶
In this episode of Hodinkee Radio, host Stephen Pulvirent takes listeners behind the scenes of Volume 7 of Hodinkee Magazine. The episode features three in-depth conversations with writers who contributed major stories to the issue.
First, Jack Forster discusses his "Reference Points" piece on the Cartier Tank, exploring over 100 years of design history. Jack, who literally wrote the book on Cartier, shares insights about Louis Cartier's perfectionism, the tank's inevitable design aesthetic, and fascinating variations like the Tank à Guichet and basculant. He reveals how these watches were originally bespoke pieces made in tiny numbers for elite clientele in Paris, London, and New York, and discusses Cartier's unique ability to create designs that feel timeless and essential.
Next, Danny Milton talks about his collector profiles for the issue, including interviews with chef Kevin Gillespie, fashion director Madison Blank, and entrepreneur Austin Chu. Danny explores the common thread among collectors: how watches gain profound personal meaning through lived experiences rather than just monetary value. He also discusses his "Why I Collect" profile of Chris Martin from the Martin Guitar Company museum, drawing parallels between guitar and watch collecting.
Finally, Joe Thompson discusses his profile of Shinji Hattori, great-grandson of Seiko's founder and current CEO. The piece examines Hattori's bold decision to reposition Grand Seiko as a luxury brand on the international stage—a dramatic shift from Seiko's quartz-dominated identity. Thompson, who has covered Seiko since 1981, reveals Hattori's surprising admissions about his father's concerns regarding quartz technology and the cultural pride driving this "grand gamble" on mechanical watchmaking.
Links¶
Transcript¶
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| Stephen Pulvirent | I wanted to have you on. Obviously, we're talking all about the magazine today. This was your first volume of the Hodinky magazine as a member of the team |
| Danny Milton | . It's my name in print, I think to the uh Steve Martin classic, The Jerk, where he says my name in print things are gonna start happening for me now |
| Stephen Pulvirent | Hey everybody, I'm your host Stephen Polmarin and this is Hodinki Radio. Feels really good to be back this week, and not least of all because we've got a really exciting day here in the Hodinky universe. We've launched volume seven of the Hodinky magazine. I truly can't believe we're on volume seven. Uh, but despite the uh tougher than usual production environment, I'll say with the COVID-19 pandemic, we've managed to put together a really amazing issue. I'm super excited about it. Uh, if you haven't already seen the announcement, go check out hodinky.com, order yourself a copy. Uh, I'm I'm really, really proud of this volume, but we wanted to offer you a little bit more of volume seven. So for this week's episode of Hodinki Radio, we're going behind the scenes. I've got Danny, I've got Jack, and I've got Joe, and each one of them's gonna give us some insights into what went into the stories they produced for the issue. So to start things off, we've got Jack talking about reference points, which he did on the iconic Cartier Tank. He's gonna share some of the little historical tidbits that even he didn't know uh going into this. We've got Danny, who interviewed a ton of collectors for this issue, uh, watch collectors and otherwise, so he's gonna talk to us a little bit about what he learned about the passion behind collecting. And then to finish things off, we've got Joe Thompson who speaks with Seiko's CEO and president Shinji Hattori. His family founded Seiko. It is literally in his blood. And he's making some pretty big moves on the Grand Seiko front, and Joe gets into all the details of why and what and what we can hope for in the future there. So whether you've already read the stories or whether you're still waiting for your copy to arrive, there is a ton to learn here. We really go beyond what's on the printed page and I think you're gonna love it. So without further ado, let's do this. Hey Jack, good to have you on the show. Well it's good to be back. So uh the reason you're here is that the next edition of the magazine is coming out, the next volume, volume seven. Uh, and in it, you wrote the reference point story, which is something we do every issue. It's a super deep dive into a historic watch. And uh for this one we picked one of the most historic watches, the Cartier Tank. Yes, we certainly did. When we decided we wanted to do the tank, it was a no-brainer that you were going to be the person to write this story, the person on our team who who needed to handle this. Uh, you've literally written the book about Cartier. Um, and I I say that uh in the least cliched way possible if that's if that's doable. But yeah, I mean can you tell us a little bit about like I'm curious before we get into the story, just your personal relationship with Cartier and with the tank Aaron Powell |
| Jack Forster | Yeah now to me Cartier represents as a company it represents a certain kind of approach to watches and to watch making which is not I don't know that it's necessarily unique, but I think that it is a very, very special case of doing something with a real commitment to producing refined, elegant designs in which sometimes there are quite fascinating mechanisms, but the mechanisms are always at the service of creating an overall aesthetic effect. And you know, Cartier in many ways kind of was around when the whole concept of luxury in the modern sense was being invented. They were there during one of the most important Renaissances in watch design and in in in the history of jewelry design, um late 1800s, early 1900s, when the you know the face of how these things were done was really changing. And um there's a romance to Cartier, to the history of the company and to the people that uh has always really, really resonated with me. And I've been in love with the brand, I've been in love with I've been in love with their history and I've been in love with the tank and and other watches that they make for many, many years. And I think just in terms of uh the creation of sheer beauty, they've done so many things in uh such an interesting historical context that really are that really transcend the whole notion of watch design. They're a company with an unparalleled capacity to reduce uh I mean, you know, listen, not everything that they produce has been a home run, but 150 plus years, you can't expect everything to be a home run. But at the same time, they have a wonderful, wonderful ability uh when they're informed to produce these designs that look as if they've always they they look inevitable in a certain sense. You know, they look as if they have been around forever, as if they, you know, fell from some you know platonic heaven of watch design, you know, more or less completely unchanged into the physical world. And um there's there's there's something about them that is so compelling on every level and represents such a high degree of com real commitment to creating really beautiful objects that I I think it's very, very hard if you're moved by that kind of thing, it's very hard to be around one of their watches and not and not find yourself trans transported just a little bit |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . Inevitability is a great word here. And like when you look at a basic tank, and when I say basic, I mean a tank normal, a tank Louis Cardier, your basic um sort of either rectangular dialed or square dialed, but rectangular profiled tank. It feels like a thing that had to have always existed. Like I really struggle to imagine a world in which this watch doesn't exist and doesn't exist basically in its exact form, like having that perfect rectangular uh chapter ring in scare quotes, because it's not a ring, um, but that chapter box, I guess, that railroad track at the center with the Cartier name inside and sort of the long hands with those nicely spaced Roman numerals, that little bit of white space at the edge of the dial, like that just feels so perfect. And I'm not trying to, you know, log roll for for Cartier here, but like it really does just feel like somehow in 1917 when they designed this thing, like they just nailed it in a way that leaves very little room for improvement for themselves and for others. Like, there's a reason why many people refer to all rectangular watches as Yeah. Oh yeah, absolutely. I I want to get a little bit into that early history. So we we think about you know 1917 is the date of design. The first ones were sort of like presented publicly in 1919. So no matter how we slice it, the tank is over a hundred years old. But can can you give us a little insight into those early days, into the birth of the tank and how this first tank normal came about |
| Jack Forster | ? Uh sure. The um the tank is supposed to have been inspired by the profile of an actual tank, uh, I believe a Renault. And uh there's a legend in Cartier that General John Pershing, um, blackjack John Pershing, uh was given a tank prototype, which if that's true, uh that would be the first tank that uh ever existed. But there are there are um there are a number of things from Cartier which have been lost to history in which it would be wonderful to find Maisie Plant's uh you know, double strand of pearls um that she got in exchange for uh what's now the Cartier Mansion uh you know, is is another example. Um and uh that's uh that that's really that that was really the origin of the tank's design. It was a uh sort of radical simplification of the profile of a military tank. Um and you know of course its most essential characteristics are the two brancards, uh the two bars on either side of the case. And one thing that really fascinates me about looking at these early cardier wristwatch designs is that you know the for the uh the whole question of how to attach a watch to the wrist was you know it was far from a foregone conclusion back in those days. A lot of things were still being worked out. And in a lot of respects, Cartier produced the first truly modern wristwatches in the sense that these really were designed from the beginning to be worn on the wrist. Of course there were other manufacturers doing similar things, but a lot of early watches that were worn on the wrist were what it uh what historians call wristlet watches. They were essentially pocket watch movements and pocket watch cases that had lugs soldered to them. You run a leather strap or a cloth strap through and you have a wristwatch. But these were clearly designed uh you know first and foremost, um originally and primarily for the wrist. They're not adaptations of pocket watch designs. And that particular period was one in which um the m the the wristwatch |
| Stephen Pulvirent | in in the sense that we now understand a wristwatch really was born. Yeah, it's it's funny. I mean I think people think of the tank primarily for its its rectangular shape, but that's a thing they don't give it enough credit for is you know in some ways the tank really is the first like purpose built industrially like scalable wristwatch right yeah I mean I don't know that |
| Jack Forster | I would call it necessarily industrially produced it was um I mean this is one of the funny things about the tank, you know, it's it's be it's it's a design that is so ubiquitous in our minds that we think that uh it it must have been produced in large numbers, kind of going all the way back to the beginning. But uh, you know, they were made in very, very small numbers. And cardiac back in those days. Uh and three locations, and that was it. And these things were um you know, if you want to And those locations were London, Paris, and New York., Yeah exactly. So uh we had um uh you know, and and at the sort of at the top of the pyramid was Louis Cartier in Paris. And Louis Cartier was really you know, each of the each of the three brothers had their own competencies. You know, Jacques Cartier was a he was a he was a great traveler, he was wonderful at sourcing, you know, large and usual gemstones. You know, back in back in those days there were a lot of large and beautiful gemstones going around, you know, partly thanks to the Russian Revolution and partly due to other historical effects. You had Pierre Cartier in New York, who was a brilliant business person, and you had Louis Cartier in Paris, who was been described to me actually by Francesca Burkel Cartier, who wrote uh this wonderful book, The Cartier's, which is a you know kind of a hidden history of her family and her ancestors. Uh he was sort of the Steve Jobs of uh of jewelry design in that he was uh an absolutely brilliant designer. He was a hundred and ten percent committed to beauty, he had one hundred and ten percent confidence in his own taste and judgment. Um he was a perfectionist, but he was also a really terrifying individual to work for. Uh he was he was he was a you know perfectionistic uh to the point of uh you know driving his driving his workshops and and the designers who worked for him absolutely crazy. But you look at the history of the tank and you know under his um creative reign at Cartier, it was one absolutely beautiful design after another. You know, the centre the centre, the allanger, the tank américain, um the uh the the tank normal, of course, and the Tank Louis Cartier, you know, as well as lots and lots of other watches, these were all created under his supervision. So suppose it's 1920, 1922, and you want to tank, you have to go to either Paris, London, or New York. You have to be known to the company. And these things were not held in stock. They were made to order. And in in relatively small numbers, especially initially, I think the first year of actual production of the cardio, they made uh I think maybe six of them. So, you know, and and right up until the the nineteen sixties when the family began to divest itself of the company that their ancestors had uh built, that their you know, grandfathers and great-grandfathers had built, um, tanks were made, you know, in in in pretty small numbers and usually to order. And this is one of the things that actually makes them difficult to collect. There just are not that many uh vintage Cartier tank watches out there because they never really were an industrially uh you know produced product. They were they were all bespoke to a certain level. And um you can't collect a particular model terribly successfully because you know almost all of them are are one-offs to you know to one degree or an |
| Stephen Pulvirent | other. Yeah, I I think that kind of like I guess limited nature of the tank makes it makes it interesting in those early days and it's it's something that not many people think about as you said, but that you know you really had to like go to one of these three cities to get the watch, and the watch you could get would vary kind of wildly like year to year. Um and so not only is it hard to collect them now, but even back then it was it was hard to say like, Oh yes, next year I will sail across the Atlantic and go to Paris and buy myself a tank allongers. Like you might get to Paris and it's just not available to you. Like that might just not be possible. Yeah, like I said, the a |
| Jack Forster | mazing thing about these uh about the tank is that you know it was uh it was decades before they were really well, I don't know about decades, but you know, for a long, long time they really weren't held in stock. You had to you had to order them it would be made for you so it wasn't as if you could just walk into um you know Cartier Paris Cardia London Cardi New York Cartier New York and say, oh you know I'd like I'd like a Cartier tank watch and they you know they they pull one out of the safe and uh you know it's serial number such and such and it's yours. You know the reply would be oh madame or monsieur thank you so much uh for your interest uh we can certainly create one for you come back in you know several weeks a month however long it you know |
| Stephen Pulvirent | Aaron Powell I I wanna I want to touch on a point we we hit on a little bit earlier and I want to really explore it and that that was again this idea of the inevitability of the design of the basic tank. And the fact that the Normal and the Louis Cartier, that design language was set pretty early on and didn't really change a ton. So the way that Cartier innovated on the tank, rather than you know, trying to quote unquote improve on that original formula was to introduce new variations, things that took the same ideas and kind of twisted them and played with them in the way that that Cartier as a design house can do in a way that almost no one else, if anyone else can. Um and and so, you know, we get models like the basculant, we get models like the savonet, we get the allanger, the centre, the American, the asymmetrique, all of these these variations that are they're tanks, but they're substantively different than the flat, square, or rectangular tank that that people know. So that long-winded setup is is prelude to the question of in in doing your research for this reference points, was there any model that you had kind of like forgotten about or, you know, don't really think about that often that you kind of rediscovered uh and kind of fell in love with all over again? I mean, you know, I have to say |
| Jack Forster | one of the models that well, one of the models that I had really I guess just missed in my previous research into the history of uh the uh the cardia tank was the uh uh was the eight day from the nineteen twenties, which was actually not a tremendously huge watch. I mean it was not what you think of when you think of an eight day w uh of an eight day watch. And I I have not had an opportunity to do any more in depth research, but I really do wonder if that was actually the first really long power reserve uh you know purpose belt wristwatch. I mean there were, you know, seven day and eight-day pocket watches before that, of course, but you know, to get to get an eight-day movement into a case that's, you know, relatively small, you know, that really looks like a perfectly respectable tank dress watch. Um I thought that that was kind of a miraculous thing. Uh two models that I really sort of fell in love with again while doing research for the piece were the tank à guichet, uh which is uh the tank with the um with the digital display of the time in a in a little window. And the tank basculant, which is a reversible watch. Um and I think they're just both so tremendously, tremendously charming. You know the uh the tank aguichet uh is just such a a a classic piece of minimalist design. You know, it's it's you it's there's there's really almost nothing there except the window for the time. And it just it just uh uh radiates a purity and simplicity, a perfection, the placement of every element. You know, something like that, for something like that to not just quote unquote work, but for it to be actually exciting, which I think the Tank A guiche is, everything has to be right. There's no margin for error whatsoever in the proportions, in the size of the windows, and the size of of the the c casease, thickness, everything has to just be absolutely perfect, otherwise it doesn't work. And, you know, Cartier nailed it. And I would have, I would have loved to be, I think of all the tanks, you know, I love the basket lot, but the Aki Shea is the one that I wish the most I were a fly on the wall for the design process because I just I you know knowing what I know of what how difficult Louis Cartier could be and what a what a perfectionist he was, I just imagine him saying over again, no, no, no good. This is no good. You bring me you bring me garbage. I make two watches better than this |
| Stephen Pulvirent | in the toilet every morning. Get out. This is what we pay you the big bucks for, Jack, are are your your vintage Louis Cartier impressions |
| Jack Forster | . Actually I stole that line from from uh the the one of uh from uh uh Anthony Bourdain actually who uh uh it was something that one of his teachers at the um at the Culinary Institute of America used to say, this old old old school French guy, he would you know he was he was chewing out some uh some s one of the students in the morning and uh or you know in one of the cooking classes and he said I make I make two chefs better than you in the toilet ever |
| Stephen Pulvirent | y morning. Tony Tony Bourdain, the patron saint of anyone who writes Aaron Powell It's one of the most creative insults that I've that I've ever heard. But |
| Jack Forster | yeah, the uh it's I I I think I mean if I absolutely positively were forced with a gun to my head to pick a single single vintage tank model, there's a very, very good chance it would be the Aug |
| Stephen Pulvirent | uiche. You know, every year Cartier's been doing these pre-day collections, you know, every year, the last few years, I mean, uh, have been doing these pre-day collections where they pick a model from the archive that year, they re-reinvent it, uh, they release them as a a core set of limited editions, usually pretty small numbers, especially as far as Cartier is concerned. And this year we got new tank asymmetric models, uh and they're really stunning, aren't they? Oh my god, yeah. I me |
| Jack Forster | an, uh I I had an opportunity, uh Ben and I had an opportunity to go to Paris before everything shut down and actually uh you know have a presentation in person. Uh and I mean I p I I am sure I gasped audibly when they showed us uh the watches. I mean they're very expensive, don't get me wrong, but they're they're just you know, I mean they're they're amazing. And the wonderful thing about all of these variations on uh on the tank is that they all look like tanks, you know. Uh they all really look like tanks. Um you know that's a really good point. It sounds simple, but it's not. No, no. They have the look and feel of a Cartier design. This is this is sort of separate from the other product development positions. It's separate from, you know, you know, from most from the other design positions. You know, this is someone who's responsible for just looking at every single design that comes out of Cartier and saying, oui, this is a Cartier, or no, this n'est pas une Cartier. And uh the the fact that they could have produced so many different variations on the tank over so many years that have the same um chicness, the same degree of Elon is I think just really amazing |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . You know what I just learned? I just learned that Jack Forrester has a dream job out there, and that is to be the we no guy at Cartier. Like we just need a business card that says Cartier, Jack Forrester, and then underneath it in slightly smaller type, it says oui, non. And that's it. That's your job. Wait, no |
| Jack Forster | . That is kind of a dream job. I mean, um there are there are there are n um very few companies that I ever think about and I think to myself, Boy, I'd like to be part of their creative process. I mean, you know, I Hodinky, if you're a watch writer, is a really fabulous uh place to be. And you know, I mean Stephen, you you and I have worked together for quite a few years now. I I mean I I I kind of get away with murder. I I largely write about what I want to write about and very you know, nobody tells me what to do at least not very often. Um but the stuff that Cartier produces is so fantastically beautiful. I mean can you imagine being part of the design and creation process on this stuff |
| Stephen Pulvirent | ? No, not at all. And I mean I've I've told stories like this before, but like anyone who has not shopped at Cartier, like if you have an opportunity to do it and you can afford to do it, go go shop at Cartier. And like I'm not saying this because they're an advertiser with the magazine or because you know I have friends who work there or like those things are both true full disclosure. Uh but like I say that because I have been a customer. Like I have walked in the door and sat down with my wife and paid full price for a gift. And like I, have never seen my wife almost cry in a store before. Like, that is just not who she is. Uh, but like, that is what Cartier does to you, you know? And you get in there, and all of a sudden, those those, you know, all those zeros next to that dollar sign just like don't matter because the stuff makes you so damn happy. And I think that's a pretty miraculous thing to be able to do with like what are ultimately consumer products. And I don't know. I mean, like I I know you and I both own Cartier watches. I do not own a tank. I own a Santos. And it's a quartz Santos. It's you know one of the less expensive watches that Cartier makes, but uh I just put that thing on it. I I feel like the king of the universe |
| Jack Forster | every single time. Yeah, I feel like I feel the same way. There's there really is something uh something quite special about Cartier. I mean look, um there there isn't a single watch out there that absolutely everybody uh loves well, except maybe the Speedmaster. That's that's uh that's the saying around that's one of the basic rules of watch journalism, right? It's like uh like a restaurant critic saying everybody loves italian food, everybody loves the speed master. Um but uh yeah it's just you you you know you put it on and uh and uh you feel something you feel something special and it's true pretty much of every product that they make |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . Yeah. Well I I think that's that's an interesting way to transition to the last thing I wanted to ask you today, which which is this last little section of of reference points, you know, it's mostly broken out into these these sub chapters, maybe we'll call them or chapters, each each of which captures a model or a collection of models that represent a period of time in Cartier's history. And you know, the last little bit, you you look at what's happened over the last maybe dozen, dozen and a half years, and then you gesture to the future. And I I wonder for you, what do you see looking forward for the tank in terms of what Cartier can do with it, what it's going to continue to mean, all of those things. Like what what are the next twenty to fifty years of of tank like? |
| Jack Forster | I mean uh what I would obviously they have a lot of stuff uh you know still that they could do in terms of well what they did this year with the asymmetrique with stuff in the pre-v collection um there are a number of the vintage models that are not in production that I would love to see come back either as limited editions or as permanent additions to the collection. I would love to see you know what I would love to see is a um a bespoke tank and a you know a sort of a customization system for the tank. Not necessarily full on bespoke because that gets um unaffordably expensive, you know, very, very quickly. And these are already pretty expensive, you know, pretty expensive timepieces. I hasten to add, I think worth it in terms of history and in terms of the satisfaction that they represent. But you know, they're they're they're costly um if you're just sort of looking at what else exists at that level of pricing. Um so I you know making a a completely bespoke Cartier tank would probably be an expensive, a very expensive undertaking. But having some sort of customization system, I think, that you know really respects the DNA of the tank, really respects the history of Cartier, really respects its design competencies, but lets you have something uh that is in some sense a collaboration between your own tastes and those of the maison. I think would be uh I think that I think would be really fantastic. Um and I want them to bring back the Agichet |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . Yeah, that would be cool. That would be cool. Um I think honestly if that came back they could just like it would be a shut up and take my money situation for me. Yeah. I mean I would just, you know, start selling all of my furniture and you |
| Jack Forster | know and I I I would say to my wife, come on look, it's so nice. I'll never be happy until I own one. But you know, it's it's funny. Um you were talking earlier about the experience of shopping, shopping at Cartier. And even if you're not going in with anything specific in mind, I think that anybody you know who loves beauty and who loves the history of beauty and who wants to really understand modern, you know, the birth of modern luxury from the ground up, you know, you owe it to yourself. If you're in London, go to New Bond Street. If you're in Paris, go to the Hue de la Bay. If you're in New York, you know, go on up to Fifth Avenue and uh you know go into the mansion. And I mean you could spend you could spend all day there. You could spend more than a you know easily more than a full day at any of those locations, really kind of immersing yourself in a feel for the history of the company company, a feel for the history of their design. And you walk out, you know, if you look at what's in there carefully, you know, the watches, the jewelry, um, accessories, I mean, I, you know, they made some of the most beautiful lighters I've ever seen. Um You know, you walk out understanding things about the the evolution of taste, the evolution of design, and the evolution of of of of luxury both as an industry and as an ideal, |
| Stephen Pulvirent | that you can't really get anyplace else. Yeah, I I totally agree and I'll I'll just add to that quickly that like they are trained in those places to be very nice to you, whether you are buying anything or not. Uh and I've had pretty great experiences at at the Cartier mansion here in New York uh when I'm not buying anything. So, you know, I said earlier it's great if you ha if you can afford to spend the money. If you can't or if you just are choosing not to, uh like Jack said, just go in and have a look around and I think like it's free and it will be uh tremendously fun. |
| Jack Forster | The great thing about Cardi is that they have never been in the hard sell business. You know, I mean if uh if Pierre Cartier is uh you know trying to sell a giant stone that you know comes from uh some Russian aristocrats uh collection you know in New York in the 1920s, he's not gonna say, oh, this is a really big stone, it's worth so you know, this is how much it's worth, blah, blah, blah blah, blah blah, blah. He's gonna tell you a story about it. He's gonna tell you he's gonna he's gonna he's gonna romance it. He's not gonna say, you should buy this because. He's gonna say, here's what this represents in terms of human interest, in terms of history. Um and uh that's much, much more effective when you're operating on that level than uh than saying, okay, well here's choice A, B, C, and D, and here's the here's the discount |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . Yeah. Totally agree. Well, for anybody who hasn't uh already ordered their copy of the magazine, again, you're gonna hear it a million times in this episode. But uh go pick up a copy. Uh Jack's story is fantastic. Again, like I think I know Cartier pretty well. I you know,, before the pandemic sat about 20 feet away from Jack and we talked about Cartier pretty much non-stop, probably more than any two adult men should be talking to one another about Cartier. but I still learned a ton of new stuff reading and editing this story. So uh I think you'll have a ton of fun. Highly recommend it and uh thank you, Jack, for sharing it with us. Oh thank you. It's uh you know oh I I go on a little bit when I talk about that. That's great, man. That's that's what you're here for. That's what we want. Awesome. Thanks, Jack. Thank you, Stephen. Thanks for having me on the Jesus. Up next, we've got Danny Milton sharing the stories of the many passionate collectors he talked to for this issue |
| Danny Milton | . Hey Danny, welcome to the show. Hey Steven, thanks for hav |
| Stephen Pulvirent | ing me back. As usual. You're becoming a r a regular uh regular guest here. I think my job might be in uh in jeopardy, but uh no comment. Um I'm under an NDA not to uh not to speak on this, so this is this is officially a coup. It's in progress. Um perfect. Uh awesome man. Well, I I wanted to have you on. Obviously, we're talking all about the magazine today. Uh, and you this was your first volume of the Hodinki magazine as a member of the team. Uh welcome to the beautiful, wonderful show |
| Danny Milton | Hey, it's my it's my it's my name in print, I think to the uh Steve Martin classic The Jerk, where he says, My name in print, things are gonna start happening for me now. So |
| Stephen Pulvirent | honestly, I like I've always been a big print magazine guy, but like my my professional career is is mostly on the internet. I never get sick of seeing my name in print man. It's it's the best feeling as as a writer |
| Danny Milton | . It's the best feeling in the world. Definitely a lifelong fantasy. Um just one of those things where you always imagine it, whether it's a novel or a magazine, and it's it's incredible. And and Honiki magazine kind of combines the two. You know, the the quality and and the production of it. It's just it's the best. I'm so excited. That's awesome. U |
| Stephen Pulvirent | h well I'm glad you are excited because uh you ended up doing some some seriously heavy lifting this issue. Uh we typically try to limit it to like one or two stories per person uh to make the workload a little more bearable. Uh you cranked out three amazing stories for this issue, uh, one of which had multiple components, the the why I collect profiles. So, you know, I wanted to have you on not just to talk specifically about like the details of each of the three stories, but a little more generally because what you ended up doing kind of inadvertently, this was not, I promise, intentional. Uh, as the person who was assigning stories for this magazine, I promise you I did not think this far ahead. Um I never do. Uh you ended up being our collector's expert for this for this issue. Uh you handled the profiles and the ads told to stories uh from actual collectors of watches and of other things, right? |
| Danny Milton | I did. I did. Um because the w the uh the collectors series is basically usually everything but watches |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . Right, exactly. So I thought we could talk a little bit about collecting and what maybe you learned writing these stories, and then we can dive into the particulars of each one, give give a couple minutes uh of preview time to give people a sense of what they might, what they'll find if they if they decide to pick up a copy. Does that does that work for you? Absolutely. Alright, so at a general level, right? Like you're a collector, I'm a collector, we're very different kinds of collectors. Uh so are the five different people you profiled here and and who you worked with here. You know, maybe from the four watch collectors you you spoke with, was was there anything that stood out to you as kind of like a perspective on collecting that hadn't really occurred to you before. And that that can either be one individual thing or it can be like a commonality between them that you just didn't realize was like core to to what you know collecting more broadly means |
| Danny Milton | . I think it it boils down to you know each one of the the people that I ended up talking to were vastly different in terms of how they came to collect in the first place. So that ranged from having an intellectual curiosity in watches to begin with to um coming to watches like most do, having them pass down and in another way, uh reaching sort of a successful uh point in your life where you start thinking to yourself, you know, watches are a good way to sort of mark an occasion. And then that sort of explodes into a greater collecting habit. So I found through everyone that I spoke to, no matter what stage that it happened, that there was one watch and one event, whether that was a positive event or a sad event maybe related to death of somebody in the family, that made a particular watch that much more important to them. Um and they still appreciate every other watch in their collection, but I found that there was one particularly that stood out for each collector, and I think that's always so cool because when um I talk to other collectors or I think about my my own self, there probably is one or two watches that are a lot more important to me that I end up wearing more often, but that doesn't take away from the other ones that I have that I wear in particularly different occasions. Um but I f I love that there's this sort of elevated piece, one that sort of hangs above the rest, and I found that cut through all of the people that I spoke with |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . Yeah, I I let's let's talk while we're on that subject about some of the particulars. So was was there any of the watches you you found or an encountered through these collectors where the story really stood out to you as kind of embodying that perspective, you know, really in in particular? Well |
| Danny Milton | , I think uh Chef Kevin Gillespie was a huge you know, I I actually got to speak to him pretty in depth. I think we had about almost a two hour conversation and and I had come to know him um we had run a watch spotting on on Kevin when he was on top chef I guess toward the beginning of quote unquote quarantine. Um and that's how he's and how he came sort of on our radar and I think it was y you Stephen who'd spotted, I think you were were actually maybe watching it live when you when you saw it on T V. That sounds that sounds about right, yeah. And I just found that the he told this long-winded story that I unfortunately had to cut down um a little bit for for the piece um about how he came to own this Pelagos that he owned. And it was a product of he brought a watch in for service. Uh he basically learned that he was gonna be without a watch for an ex very extended period of time. Uh, at that moment, he wanted to buy his wife a watch. Um, and in the process of doing so, he bought his wife a watch, he brought it home, it was around Christmas time, he learned in in a way you'll see in the story that it was not a very good gift to buy. Uh when he was sort of suggesting what he may have bought for her, uh learned that she had zero interest in receiving this gift, at which point he s sneakily went back to the watch store, returned said gift, um, and as fate would have it, uh you don't get your money back on that specific purchase, but rather the uh much love store credit. Um so left with uh few options, um he had come to appreciate Tudor uh through some family ties. Um uh his wife's father was in the military. Um and I as I was speaking to him, I realized that the moment that he bought uh this watch, what I'm talking about is a Tudor Pelagos, and it was the um the ETA version. So it's as some people know, there's the Pelagos that has two lines of text and the Pelagos that has 500 lines of text. So this is the Pelagos with the two lines of text. Um and so at that moment it it it occurred to me that it this was just a watch purchase, and I think um in retrospect um he had learned to appreciate a lot of the sort of um the things that he didn't became apparent to him as time went on. And then as he wore the watch on Top Chef, it just it it gained a whole new level of meaning for him. And it's now a watch that it's probably his I know from what he said it's his favorite watch that he wears all the time. And it just goes to to show you that you build memories with these things and they become more important than they ever were the moment that you you purchase them. Um this was a watch that he was sort of forced into buying, you know, with store credit, and now it's something that he would never give up, you know, in any situation. |
| Stephen Pulvirent | Yeah, I think I I love that perspective that that a watch that you've lived with becomes more valuable over time and and I think it's really interesting 'cause we you know, a popular topic on on this show is we talk about, you know, enjoying the watches you have versus always looking for something new versus selling things versus, you know, all these different ways to enjoy watches. And the idea that there's that next thing on the horizon, but like weirdly the thing you already have is more valuable than that other thing, but that other thing can't become more valuable until you own it. Like there's there's almost like a paradox there that that I think is kind of fascinating. I don't know if there's any any like real meat there, but I I think that dynamic is at the very least a a fascinating one to kind of think about for a little bit. Ye |
| Danny Milton | ah, and it also plays into stuff that's only valuable to you. Um I I happen to you know have some watches and I'll just say I have the um the the Rolex GMT, uh the Batman. And there are days where I lament the fact it because when I pr when I bought it, I didn't buy it to be a value piece. I bought it to wear and enjoy it. And there's days when I lament the fact that it is as valuable as it is, um, given the fact that it's discontinued and what's going on in the secondary market with Rolex in general. Whereas I have other watches which don't have as much value to others, but have immense value to me, much more value than that watch actually does have to me. Um and and I think the Pelagos is a great example of that. I mean that's your classic modern tool watch. Um and it's not like you could sell it for a song somewhere, but he would never let it go. I don't think even if he could. But the fact that it's not necessarily the most valuable watch in the world, the personal value means just so much more. Ye |
| Stephen Pulvirent | ah, and I I I totally agree. And there's a m a moment in this story with Kevin that that I think is particularly powerful, uh, where he talks about, you know, he gets to Top Chef, he brought the watch he was gonna wear, it was this Pelagose, and the producers took it like as soon as he got to set and basically said, like, you can't wear this watch. Nobody's allowed to wear watches. Uh anecdotally, I've heard that that's because they're worried about smart watches, about people like essentially cheating uh by having access to data. Um and so he like fine and gives them the watch, whatever. And then he gets to to the first day of shooting and notices that other chefs are wearing their watches and he tells the producers to like cut the cameras for a minute because he needs to ask for his watch back. Which I think is like these producers must have thought he was an absolute nutcase that he was like, we have to stop shooting a like major television program for me to ask for my watch back. But the quote is he said to the producers, I have to have this. I need this. You've taken everything else. You have my wallet, my passport, and my soul. I at least need to have my watch. And like that is such a powerful statement for the the totems that these things can become in our lives. And I I don't know why. Like reading that every time, like I feel it, like I feel it like deep in my bones, uh, that I've I've felt that way before and I'm sure I'll feel that way in the future, you know, whether it's on that long haul flight or whether it's, you know, when you're away from your family or whatever, like there are those moments where you're just like, it's just me and you, man. Uh and I I think that's a really cool thing. |
| Danny Milton | It came across just as dramatically and and it and it hit me when he said it, you know, just as much as it appears on the written page. Um and it also uh it bears keeping in mind that he is a top chef uh alumnus. So he had uh sort of no stage fright. He'd seen it all at that point. So for him, I can just imagine, you know, getting to know him a little bit that it was not an issue for him to to call for the producers to cut the cameras. I feel like he just knew he's like, you know what, you guys are messing with me. This is all some sort of mind game, and you're not gonna take my watch and I'm just not gonna let this happen. We are gonna cut cameras now and I'm gonna get it back |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . That yeah, I t I think that's a great observation and I'm I am sure you're right. Um cool I I want to make sure we get some time to talk about the why I collect profiles too. Um this is personally one of my favorite parts of every Ho'Dinky magazine. It's it's a chance to do in some ways what we try to do on this this podcast every week, which is is give people a look at the people of the watch world instead of just the watches themselves. Um, or obviously in interested the watches and like there are plenty of great watches in this why I collect. Um you know the three folks we profiled, I'll just give people a quick overview are uh Miles Fisher, who's a hodinky radio alum, um Madison Blank, uh, who is a well-known personality in the fashion world. Um, she's currently the head of uh brand relations at GOAT. She used to be the men's fashion director at Saxmith Avenue, um and in addition to collecting watches, she's a big streetwear collector. Uh, and then we profiled Austin Chu. And when I say we, I mean you profiled Austin Chu. Uh, who's a Hong Kong-based entrepreneur, he's a big watch collector. Uh, uh people might know him on Instagram as Horror Loop, um, huge in the AP world. Um, and so we got a really diverse set of watches, you know, everything from like MB and Fs and complicated Royal Oaks to you know green dial Daytonas and limited edition Grand Secos. Um so the watches are are plenty cool, but uh these three people have kind of an interesting dynamic, and I I wanted to know. I mean, these three people didn't meet each other interact in any way, but I'm I'm kind of curious from your perspective, having spoken to all three of them, do you think at all about the sort of like dynamic that is set up here |
| Danny Milton | ? The three of them strike me all as like quintessential hustlers. You know, in like they are always working. Um and I think that their collections respectively um are a reflection of that idea. I mean you've got two entrepreneurs and you've got Madison who's sort of risen up the ranks, you know, in men's fashion and is almost at you know the the apex of that right now um and they're all working at such a high level that to be able to to sit down with them and slow things down even if it was just for 30 minutes um you get to see their passions sort of unfold in front of them and watches mean a lot to them. Um, and so that's it's it's great with people like that, and it's the same when we see any episode of Talking Watches where where we we have people like that on there, that that's where we get to slow things down a little bit. Um and collecting is is a process, it doesn't happen all at one time. And so it's even more interesting to to sort of track when each watch came and how it came. But but |
| Stephen Pulvirent | Yeah, that's interesting. I I hadn't thought about that, but kind of in hindsight, that strikes me as as spot on. Um, I particularly enjoyed Madison's profile. Um, mostly, you know, she comes from the fashion world, which has many of the same sort of like idiosyncrasies and hang-ups as as the watch world, but in in different ways. Um and and I like the fact that she, for lack of a better way, like gives zero fucks about what the watch world traditionally cares about. You know, like this idea that, you know, she wanted a red-dialed uh gold Rolex and they didn't make one. So like she got a dial refinished. And like most of our listeners are probably like pulling their headphones off and wailing and gnashing their teeth as I say that. And like, fine, you can have that perspective. I respect that, whatever. Um, I say as I roll my own eyes. Uh but like she wanted a watch and she got it made and like as you said, like she's a total hustler, but she also wants to do her thing. Uh and I I think in a watch world that often rewards sameness and rewards everybody wanting to buy the same eight watches uh over and over and over again. The fact that she's like, I want what I want. I like what I want. That can be a gold royal oak with diamond indexes. That's a family heirloom. It can be the green dial Daytona, cause that's not the Daytona everybody wants. Or it can be a day date with a custom-made dial because she just like wanted it and didn't see it out there. And that's that's a fun approach to collecting, I think |
| Danny Milton | . Yeah, and I related to her a lot. I mean, obviously we're we're the same age, which was which is fun, you know, to be able to speak to a contemporary that's doing some really amazing things. But I think that so much of what brought her into the world of collecting was was based on on her family. And I th I I really got the sense that she has a close relationship with her parents. She had a very close relationship with her grandfather And I'm sure that, you know, enough people who have read a lot of the stories that I've been writing, you know, there there's a good amount of these sort of first person pieces where I'm writing about my own life and I came into watches through my family. And the reason that I I have certain tastes it it stems from that it makes the things more important and I can I got that sense from her that this grew sort of germinated from from that. I mean you can really feel, you know how, that has she even says that for the first line of the story, the collecting has always been in her DNA. And that can sound sort of like a cliche, but once we sort of unwrapped and unpacked what that really meant, it was true. And it was so cool to sort of listen to her you know, it was it was an emotional part of our conversation when she spoke about her grandfather passing away and a watch that she remembers being on his wrist, you know, for her entire life growing up is now a watch that you know she thinks that she may not very well have liked had it not been for her grandfather having worn it, and it's something that she now wears all the time. And I relate to that entirely. You know, I wrote a story recently about two-tone date just where I even said if not for this crazy f family purchasing history of two-tone watches, would I even own a two-tone date just? Probably not. Um, but I I I think that I'm better off having had those experiences and I and I love wearing it and I related to that a lot |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . I I want to make sure we find time because we're we're starting to reach the end of this segment, but uh I want to make sure we find time to discuss the collectors, which as you mentioned up top, is the column we do in every issue of the magazine that is about somebody who collects something other than watches. Um And in this issue we profiled a guy named Chris Martin, um, not the Chris Martin from Coldplay. Uh just a heads up. Uh, you know, we ever everybody who we talked to about this story, we were like, Yeah, we're doing a profile of Chris Martin and his guitars. And people were like, Holy shit, like the Coldplay guy no like a guy who maybe is even more famous and legendary in guitar circles um his family has Martin guitars um you know the the legendary uh Pennsylvania based maker of of acoustic guitars. And the story was about his his personal collection which evolved into being the Martin Guitar Museum. So I wonder, you know, talking to him, you're used to talking to collectors, you're also a guitar guy. Um how how did you kind of approach this story when when we first threw it your way |
| Danny Milton | ? So I got the sense um that Chris was a was a storyteller, you know, just having um seen him seen videos of him speaking before, um and I was very much prepared to sort of let him guide the conversation so that I wouldn't miss I I love little nuances of stories and I find that often if you control the conversation too much you lose those and I wanted as much as I could. Um and so you know, I didn't go in with a with a ton of information about about him. And so there was a lot of fun surprises. Like you would never think that the CEO of the Martin Guitar Company is a quote unquote terrible guitar player that threw in the towel. I mean that's just hilarious. I mean to to want to collect something that you don't even get the enjoyment out of its utility is just fascinating to me. But it also just goes to show you you know what collecting is. I mean, people who collect art aren't painters, and a well-made guitar is a piece of art, and especially you know, this is a for everyone who hasn't seen this issue yet, this is a photo heavy, you know, feature, and there are some beautiful guitars here. And they're guitars that were built, I'm talking early 1800s, that are still very much standing and playable to this day. And that's just an incredible concept |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . You know, from my perspective as as somebody who got to read this story as as it was kind of germinating in in a few different drafts, the fact that he grew up kind of just like fully immersed in this world. Like he has been soaking up guitars and guitar knowledge his entire life. It's in his blood. Uh despite how cliche that sounds, it it genuinely is. Um it it it almost feels inevitable that he would end up collecting guitars but I appreciated that like really nowhere in the story did I get a sense from him that he was doing this out of like obligation or because he thought it was expected of him or that this was just what he should do. Uh it's so cool to see somebody who's like multi-generational like this in in a given category still be so enthusiastic. Like he seems I I didn't talk to him, but I'm wondering I guess from your perspective, is he really like still that excited about it |
| Danny Milton | ? He is. I mean these stories for him, they are in his blood. And I and I I think I got to to to ask him about this at the end. It's incredible, obviously, and any historian can sort of trace back, you know, fantastic stories about anything. But we're talking about these really specific instances in the guitar world that sort of trace the the true American dream, you know, hopping on a ship from from Europe or from England and Ireland and coming over to America and starting a guitar business and starting a very successful guitar business. And for him to be able to speak about his great great great grandfather in a way, you know, you could be talking about any historical figure. I don't know what my relatives were doing in the early 1800s. I have no record of that. Um, but there are records of guitar sales and important guitar sales. Um, and all of those are kept by the company. And for him to be able to not just speak about the history of the company, but the history of his family, that's what really came through. And it's just one of those things, I say it over and over again. I said it about Madison, I say it about this, that family connection makes the collecting aspect much more important to somebody, and I think you can really feel that with him. And what you were saying about how you know he didn't feel he was doing this out of duty, I think in some way he was sort of a rebel early on. This was not someone who wanted to grow up in the family business. He was a child of divorce, and I think he felt that the last thing he wanted to do as sort of a rebellious teenager was was join the family business. And I think the far he went sort of the the opposite direction of that and wanting to become a marine biologist, moved across the country to Los Angeles and I think realized on his own that that that was in his blood, that it was something that he he couldn't run away from, and it was actually something it wasn't something he didn't want to do, it was something he very much did want to do. But he came at it from an honest perspective, and he went into the shop and worked on the guitars themselves, cutting wood, working in the factory, and sort of got into it at the ground level, even though he could have walked in at the corporate level, you know, I'm sure very easily. Um, but did it in a in a way that I think was was super interesting, and the story is more interesting because of it. Yeah, I to I totally |
| Stephen Pulvirent | agree. I think you know this is a case where we can build a story all we want as a story about a guitar collector, but as with hopefully most things in in this magazine, uh it's about a lot more than that. It's it's about a person, it's about their journey, it's about their family, it's about the way they relate to the world. And the the small but significant part, and in some cases not so small but significant part that objects like guitars or watches or or what have you can can play in that. So yeah, I I you know would heavily encourage everybody to to pick up their copies in the magazine and check these stories out. I think if you're a person who collects things, uh again, whether it's watches or or other things, uh, you're gonna really find these find these uh exciting and relatable and hopefully you can see a little of yourself in these and hopefully see maybe what you do and don't love about collecting and just get get a little bit of a perspective on the community that we're we're all a part of in in one way or another. Couldn't have said it better Well, I I'll go ahead and say you did say it better in the actual magazine, so people should read the stories. Uh they're they're much more interesting than I can possibly make them sound here. But I appreciate you giving us a peek behind the curtain here and and a little more detail on uh on what went into this this reporting. Yeah, for sure. And thanks for for having me on again to be able to do that. It was a lot of fun. Awesome. Thanks, Danny. Talk to you soon. See ya. And to take us home this week, we've got Joe Thompson talking about his interview with Grand Seiko's Shinji Hittori. Hey Joe, how's it going? Fine, Steven, how are you? I'm doing well, I'm doing well. It's uh I'm I'm excited to have this conversation for for quite a few reasons, but uh not least of all because I can't believe it, we did it again, we got another magazine out the door some way somehow. Thanks to you, man. Honest to God. Thanks to me and to literally everyone else on the team. I mean, I think people may not realize that everyone at Hodinky works on the Hodinky magazine. I mean it's it's an effort obviously of our editors, but then the photography team, uh, you know, we have our ad sales team, we have even like our finance team dealing with invoices and booking locations and whatever. Like this is this is really a full 360 degree effort. So I'm uh I'm excited to have it out there and I'm I'm glad that you and I can sit down and talk about what's one of my my personal favorite stories in in the magazine. Well thank you. So the story we'll we'll set the story up here for people. The story is called The Grand Gamble of Shinji Hitori. The great grandson of Seiko's founder is betting on the firm's future on its luxury watch brand Grand Seiko. Um so basically what this is, is it sort of parallel profiles of Shinji Hittori, the CEO and chairman of Seiko, and then the brand Grand Seiko, right? Exactly. And you've been you've been intimately familiar with Seiko for for quite a while, too, right |
| Joe Thompson | ? Oh for sure, Stephen. Um my first trip to Japan uh to see Seiko was in 1981. So that's how how far back it goes. Um and what interested me about this story is because of this grand gamble, um what the story is about is the fact that uh Seiko um is really changing its identity in the marketplace. listeners know um that they're making a major shift from seiko as a mid-range mass market uh quartz watch which has been which was its identity over the past 40 years to make Grand Seiko the new face of Seiko. And now this is a move. So he is Tank, Shinji Hittori, who is the great-grandson of the founder of Seiko is taking Seiko to a place on international markets where it has never been before. And it is he he had to sign off on this dramatic uh change of direction. And so that's why I wanted to profile him in the magazine. We have covered this story uh all along at Hudinki. Um and for the sort of the the what, where, and why of this, we have uh we did a we did a piece in our December 2018 issue about it. But what we really didn't cover was the who. And that was the opportunity here was to uh to spend some time. The original plan was for me to go to Tokyo, of course, uh talking to him uh about what this was like for for for him to make this decision that no other uh executive, certainly no other member of the Hattori family, but no other uh none of the executives within Seiko wanted to make. So it's a dramatic shift. And uh and we were looking to find out more about |
| Stephen Pulvirent | it. Yeah, and what one of the things you touch on in the story that you just kind of mentioned in the in that answer is this is on the international stage, whereas Grand Seiko was originally conceived as a domestic brand and it was only available domestically for decades. And so, you know, we may think of, oh, you know, Grand Seiko goes back to the 1960s, but on the global scale, that's not really the case. This is still a relatively new kind of direction for this company at any sort of scale, right? Certainly one of the factors in this |
| Joe Thompson | is that is the mechanical aspect of Grand Seiko. In fact, they make Grand Secos in courts as well. But the big push clearly here on international markets is for the mechanical Grand Seiko. And so, and I think one of the reasons to your point, uh, one of the reasons that Shinji Hittori made this shift is that there was this dramatic, there was this disconnect between the image of seiko on international markets and the image of seiko on the domestic market. And be Seiko Seiko has long has a long history of being a manufacturer of mechanical watches. Their first mechanical watch, the Laurel, predates World War I. It's in 1913. I mean that's that's that's earlier than many, many, many Swiss watch firms in terms of producing mechanical wristwatch. I'm talking about a wristwatch here. Um and so they they Seiko produced Japan's first mechanical wristwatch. So they had this legacy that went throughout their history. They were always, let's say, slightly behind the Swiss, there's no doubt about that. In the early years, the Americans and the Swiss, we're talking about a company that was founded in 1881. But to the point about Grand Sego, at a certain point after the war in the 1950s, Sego wanted to step up its mechanical watch game. And they got to the point where they felt we are now competitive. We are as good as the Swiss. And that's what led to the creation of Grand Sego. This was this was the best Seiko and it had tolerances that were stricter than Kosk. So the an element in this whole story is that okay fine uh they they they find they finally master their mechanical watch technology literally 10 years before they themselves, ironically, go on a mission to destroy the mechanical watch business. Because in 1960 they launched Main Seiko. In 1969, they launched the Seiko Astron, the world's first quartz analog watch. And there's there's the there's lots of ironies here. Fast forward to a certain point, it is quartz, it's electronics that make Seiko uh internationally famous. And by nineteen seventy-seven, which is my first year covering the watch world, Seiko that year became the largest watch company in the world. 700 million dollars, 18 million pieces. Um they were they were it. They were the game. So fast forward even more, quartz is their is their ticket to ride. And they start to neglect the mechanical. In fact, for a certain period in the 80s, they no longer made mechanical grand seco's. But another irony is the mechanical then comes back globally, we all we all know that story. Um Quartz Sega SECO's image as a quartz watch producer over time, because it's an electronic product, starts to and for lots of other reasons uh starts to erode the the quartz technology uh the cheap watches um everybody can make them um and so seiko as a a uh seco's brilliant image did erode. And so the ultimately the decision came, let's say at the turn of the of the new millennium, is uh here here's here here's the Swiss coming back swiftly on on as as a luxury watch um and seiko starting to starting to to get lumped into uh as as as as as people might remember ads from K let's say Kmart, you know, or Walmart, you know, or Target. Seiko Citizen Boulevard, 50% off. And so from for Seiko's management, this was always a concern. Nobody wanted to move away from the court's base and the court's technology. There was the feeling was that they could not compete. Um, and it was it was it was Shinji Hittori who becomes president in 2003 of Seiko. He is, as I say, the great grandson. And he he one of the reasons for sure that he articulates is that he was just concerned that the image of Seiko in Japan, where where they had, where they they were a luxury product, with Grand Seiko and with Credo, crator, these two fine watches, both of which had mechanical watch movements. That image of Seiko in Japan was quite different than the image of Seiko that they themselves had marketed and exported around the world. And so that was one uh major decision in making this shift. |
| Stephen Pulvirent | Yeah. Yeah, I I think that that's a really incredible look at as you said the the sort of the what and the the how in some ways, but the the who is really the center of this story. And you know, you mentioned that your first trip to Japan to visit Seiko was nineteen eighty one. Do you remember the first time you met Shinji Hattori or any member of the Hatori family for that for that matter? Of the Hattori family? Oh, oh, su |
| Joe Thompson | re. And my you know uh Regro Hattori, my first interview with him was in 1984. Redro Hattori was um Shin Shinji's uh uncle. Just to quickly uh do the chronology here. Shinji's father was also CEO, president, and they they they they go by president and and CEO, but but president was the title. Again, I but backdrop. Kintaro Hattori founds the company in 1881. And then all the way through, there is a Hattori family member who has the title of president of the company? And Kintaro, K-I-M-T-A-R-O, is the founder. Uh then Then Shinji's father, Kentaro, K-E-N-T-T-A-R, he becomes president in nineteen seventy-four. He's president from nineteen seventy-four to 1983 which is the heyday of Seiko's rise. But then in 1983 he moves up to chairman and his brother Regro uh in 1983 becomes president. And Redro stays president all the way up from 83 to 2003. And so my in my my encounter with the Hattori family, it was yes, the first time I ever interviewed uh a Tory family member was nineteen eighty four. It was a one on one. Believe it or not, in those days there there were no handlers, the PR people weren't there. It was just this was it's hard to believe today. Yeah, I mean that's that's incomprehensible. And it's it's the way it used to be. I've I've mentioned here in one of the previous interviews, uh my my first and only interview with Patrick Heineger of Rolex was just one on-on- oneone in the room, just the two of us. I mean it's it's astonishing to think about. But that is you that that was to greatly to my advantage back in those days. But yeah, that was my first interview with a Hattori family member. And then and then, I mean even, since then, there have only been two at the top of the company. But but uh but Shinji comes into the company uh not until interestingly his father steps down as president. Then uh he sent spent the first he's an economist and he fent the first the first um nine years of his life uh for uh with uh with a uh a big japanese trading company and then when his father was no longer um CEO, he joins the company. But one of the most striking things about the first interview was, and I can't even remember because it happened in 2004. And I don't know if I got a tip or I stumbled on stumbled on it. I'm not, I'm not sure, but I remember being struck by the fact that he just offered that he loved American music. I'm sure I asked him. Somebody must have but but he he he uh one of the intriguing things about him is that he he loves American pop music from the 1950s he adores Elvis Presley. He can talk and we did in that very first interview. And you know, that's that's my generation as well. And you you you can get into arguments about Brenda Lee versus Connie Francis, you know. And and y y you know, Paul Anka versus Neil Sadaka. It's like this. And and and he's really quite conversant and he's he he's musical. He has he has a very, very nice voice and he he's also a person who performs. He's an artist. A performance artist, I would say. You know? So so yeah, there was there was that. It was clear from to me at that point that this this this is this is a different Hitori than what we had |
| Stephen Pulvirent | known. I think it's really fascinating because you know you mentioned doing the interview one-on-one, right, back in the eighties was was crazy. I mean, now any of these watch companies, but the Japanese watch companies in particular, there's so much structure around everything. I mean there's multiple publicists everywhere, you know, everything has to get cleared. You kind of have to, you know, do very thorough fact checking with these companies if you want to get any real information. Everything's very corporate according to message. And to have somebody at the helm of this company, and and no less he's he's the family member, you know, of the founder. And the fact that he like he has personality and like it's not just he's not just Mr. Seiko, like he has his own kind of thing, and he's not afraid to be himself, and also he's not afraid to like inject little bits of himself into the brand in in certain ways. And I think that's that's really unique, at least from my my perspective. No, I I I agree. And I wrote right away about and and the |
| Joe Thompson | other part of that first interview, uh to the whole to the the main theme here is that at that time of course we're talking what 2004 the mechanical has come back and we're there's already a cult forming around Grand Seiko. Let's take it just American. American businessmen are going to uh Japan. Um, they're they've heard about this this sort of this amazing mechanical watch that Seiko makes, which which was sort of jarring. Really? Seiko made, you know, back at the end in the in the 1990s. Um and they come back and then on the the the the forums at the time, there is developing a huge uh following for these watches. And there was a discussion, I can tell you, because I have been so long covering Seiko, um, over the years I got hadten to know and know the various executives, I would be going out there every two or three years to Japan, and then you'd see them around. And it's like what was the story. I covered it extremely closely. Um and so if you go on a trip, you know, as I would go uh on my own, um uh we didn't groups in those days. I would say want to come out and we want to here's the survey you want to do, we could do it, et cetera, et cetera. You're spending you've got real quality time with with the the top executives. And there was a debate at that time about should we uh should we emphasize the mechanical? And I can remember asking, I can remember S Sututomoomo Matomi, the president then, Tom Matomi, as he liked to be called. Um, and his his he he he would say to me, no, and I I would say to him, why, why are you not doing this? Why the you know uh and he would ask, what do you think? Because you know, you'd be off the record, you'd just be conversing uh about the market, about the business. And he would say, Well, what do you think? What's it like in the States? Do you think this would be successful? And I kept saying, yes, it already is. There is a cult following already. But they were extremely hesitant to do it. And in the very first interview, I said to Shunji Hattori, whom I had just met, um Will you consider introducing Grand Seiko mechanical watches outside of Japan? And he told me, boom, right away, yes, we will do this. I intend to do this. But it will take time. And um, and it did. It took six years, uh, for various reasons. I mean, and we won't go into them now, but there were various reasons where they could not instantly automatically tool up, etc. Um, but he then brought right away a a new attitude. Before the attitude was uh we have to stay in our lane. There was um I mean I have a whole theory about the the heroes of the of the of the the court's watch era um I mean to a man in my view um they missed it's very very hard I don't mean it as a a uh as a criticism so much as um they missed ev even Nicholas Hayek I mean was was was late to recognize the the fact that the mechanical was going to come back. And that was certainly true of of uh of of the Seiko executives. That was certainly true of Swiss watch executives like like Alan Dominique Perrin, I would l list Nicholas Hyde, Cherry Grinberg at Navado, all of the heroes of the courts watch uh era. You know, you get wedded to that technology. Um, but but Shinji Hittori uh for his own reasons did not feel that way. And and from the beginning, he he just said to me flat out on the record, yes, we will do this. And that was a that was a and I and I covered at the time and I said, no, this is a this is a big change. Um and um and then it brings us up to to uh to this grand gamble uh that we're talking about. But but there's no doubt that that he was the one who um who validated let's say whatever whatever uh whatever group in the company said you, know what we,'ve got we've got to do this. We've, you know, there's no reason for us not to compete with the Swiss, yeah, uh with our technology, our high mechanical technology |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . Yeah, it's super fascinating. I I wonder you touch on it in the story a little bit specifically. Um, you know, you spoke to Akionaito, um, who's one of the top executives at at Seiko, um, and used to be a part of the Seiko team here here in the US. Um and you you talk to Akiyunaito and and he mentions this idea that you know Shinji Hittori was always so proud of Seiko's history as a fine watchmaker, and that it may have like bothered him a little bit to think that Seiko's image in the rest of the world wasn't this shining beacon of fine watchmaking, but was instead, you know, quality, affordable, whatever, you know? Um do you do you think that was a big part of this that outside of the obvious like business decisions here, that some of it was just pride in the the thing, and I don't mean pride in a bad way, I mean, pride in in the thing his family had created and wanting to kind of like share it with the world and shine a spotlight on it. That's exactly right. That's definitely a fac |
| Joe Thompson | tor. Um this was a Hattori um who just felt that that Grand Seiko should not just be a Jap, a product for the domestic market. And that was just in in in one in one sense, it's it's it it it was as simple as that. And so the elements in that are that's right, that that we have this long history of mechanical watchmaking. Um that we have not promoted, but we should have. And so there's also, yeah, there's a certain amount of family pride in that. The concern about Sego's image is also part of a family pride. He told me in the interview that we had for this story, that his father early on, this is amazing because his father um died very young. He died in nineteen eighty seven. But but the father was concerned about the fact that as an electronic product, the um the price point of the early cords products would erode. And that is exactly what happened. And the father saw that. It be it began in the 1985 Plaza Accords. I can get into the weeds here. I don't want to But that was a a it was essentially um when when uh sort of the western countries uh decided uh that they wanted to in effect uh compete against the the the the Japanese yen and they and they drove up the Japanese yen. Uh it was a deliberate policy in order to compete and and and that that that's called in DACA in Japan, high yen. And of course that hurts all exports when uh the value of the Japanese yen uh appreciates. So um uh there would be waves of indaka that followed. And um Kentaro, Shinji's father, uh was concerned about the impact that that would have on the image of the brand. So he carried he brings that to this decision as well. Um and that was a early on. He talked to me about that and he said, no, that his father he he remembers his father expressing concern about that. Because the early the early uh quartz watches were considered, you know, really qua high quality pieces. You know, now Seiko contributes to this. We can't just let you know them off the hook. Seiko in those days was a a a manufacturing driven driven culture, not marketing driven. And so that the engineers pretty much were in charge, the factories decided what to make. And it was the job of the marketers in Tokyo and globally to sell it. And so what this led to was overproduction. And overproduction led to a robust gray market for Seiko, a certain addiction to those 18 million units so that they never they can never go down and this also helps to erode the brand image but but but um and then and then and then the the rest of the story comes. We then get into the developments, let's say, since 2010. But in 2010, um Shinji was able to it's Seiko, uh I should say, but under under the the policy that Shinji had had uh had had approved, uh then launched Grand Seiko internationally. And um then the next the next sort of thing that happens is that um so so that's a good thing. So now now the rest of the world is getting to see and again, you know, you don't have to go to Tokyo or to go to Japan to buy a Grand Seiko. So Grand Seiko is now, you know, in in in in the United States, was always was Seiko's number one overseas market, and also in Europe. But small, no doubt. I mean certainly small. And then the the the the flip side of this was that the erosion of of the core Seiko brand, that that was the strong identity of Seiko throughout what the modern era from the 1970s on, just started to erode because of new factors in the mid-range market, like smartwatches and wearables, like e-commerce, so that that it became clear that the meetle of the the um the global watch market was never going to be as strong as it had been before. That that that the scene had shifted, that that and that that that the frustration that that that Shinji Hittori started to feel is up Well by God, you know, if if if the shift is is is to luxury, um we should make the shift. We just what we what we have to do, it's more messaging than manufacturing. We manufacture a great product. Now we have to just make it available internationally. Another factor, Stephen, in this, I think is that that Shinji Hituri brings a pride not only in the family and in the company, but in all of Japanese culture. There was, I think, a feeling prior to in in in the in the in the 70s and 80s and the 90s that that that Seiko's sort of culture was too foreign, too foreign for Americans and Europeans. So that a lot of the elements about the Grand Seco story, you know, the design, the the nature, uh just the the uh Japanese culture. Um all of these elements that are that that that they are now that they now boast about, um you you know, uh there was a hesitation in previous management to to think that that would that that was sellable on the international market. I believe this. And and that's another factor. And you would whereas he is proud of the fact and that there has been, I mean, there has been, you know, globalization has bought this appreciation for for other cultures and all the rest. And so, you know, you you can use uh you know, uh the arts of making swords in the samurai era, you know? |
| Stephen Pulvirent | Um and Mount Watch. Yeah, and in a funny way, I think that has actually become Grand Seiko's kind of like best marketing tool. And it's it's maybe most appealing thing is that the watches feel Japanese. They don't feel like a company in Japan trying to make a copy of a Swiss watch. It feels like a different approach to watchmaking, it's a different approach to craft, to tradition, to design, to all of these things. And, you know, I think for some collectors who are either, you know, they're already deep in collecting Swiss watches and they're looking for something different, or for people who maybe don't connect with that sort of approach, or for people who maybe aren't even interested in watches to start, but they're interested in Japanese culture and they come to watches through Seiko because they see that connection. So it's it's interesting to hear that there was hesitation on that for decades because it seems to me that that's now maybe their greatest their greatest strength. Exactly. Exactly. |
| Joe Thompson | Um and and so that's why, you know, uh he is an agent of change. Um that was one of the one really the main theme of the piece was just to to present this this this executive occasionally, as you as as as as the readers know, we do profile uh some uh top uh uh watch executives in the magazine and so uh it was worthy of that to be honest though another interesting thing about this was it it was sort of this is sort of foreign as well. This American style, hey, come on in, let's sit and chat. Let me ask you all these personal questions. This this is this is sort of also you know, it's um it's a bit different. And uh um so that uh I appreciate the fact that um that that he was willing to do that. I mean he and I at this point, I mean I've known him for sixteen years, been covering him and and you know, w it it's on a I I think there is a a a comfort zone now. It's first its first name. I mean I call Mr. Hattori of course, but it's it's it he knows he he he knows my history with the company. And so um uh he was I I think willing to talk about about some of this stuff. But but even that, I mean other, you know, um off the record, I mean he he was always fine. But my, you know, what what we had to to get approved here by him and the other powers at B there is that oh that that we're going to uh we want to talk about him and his love of Elvis, etc. Whoa, hey, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, where are you guys going with this? Well I w |
| Stephen Pulvirent | onder I I wonder thinking about that, like what what was and maybe this is a good thing to end on here, what what was the most interesting thing you learned about him in this interview that either you didn't know about him or you were kind of shocked that he was willing to put on the record? Well, that's a good question that I |
| Joe Thompson | didn't anticipate And to be honest with you, I was surprised at how honest he was about the concern that his father had about the direction of courts. Um and that essentially what he was saying is his father had a concern that quartz was not going to be the real answer long term. I had never heard a Seiko executive say that before. Um and um it informs, as I say, it informs the decision that he is making. Um and and and and uh uh uh to do that. So I I would say I think it that that that to me was the the most surprising thing that it's clear that that the you know that they've they've they've they've discussed this long term and um that to pivot i mean i to for for uh a for seco to pivot to a certain extent i don't say away from courts it's if they're not pivoting away from courts uh they're there core seco will remain there still is tremendous interest in the market in Seiko, but the recognition that they need as a full line watch company that makes literally every technology in horology. And they're very proud of that. Um including, you know, right, uh Spring Drive, just all of it. They do they do they do all solar, you name it they make it but um that the the I I I was surprised at that the other thing that I think we do have to emphasize here that the the the word grant the word gamble is used uh with it's a quite deliberately in the title of that story. There is no guarantee that that that the world wants a high mechanical Seko watch. This is what the gamble is. Um so far so good. But it's early days and he knows it and SECO executives know it. Um, but uh there was resistance as I as I talk about, both both in the reporting we've done for Hudinky so far and in the piece. There's there there's there's some resistance even in the trade, or there had been. What do I need as an you know as a as as an Oregon retailer with another mechanical watch? I I need I need SECO to be as one CEO told me, this is this was uh back uh in 2010 and and eleven when when it was launched, is I I don't need I don't need them to bring bring me a mechanical watch. I need them to stay where they're strong. Damn it. D inown the, you know, down in the $500, $600 category. So uh so we'll see how it goes. But uh he's betting he's betting the future of the company on it |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . It's pretty it's pretty amazing and it's fun. I mean, in the in the watch era, we talk so much about history. It's it's fun to be watching, you know, as a journalist and a collector, it's it's fun to be watching in a moment when things are feel like they're in flux. You know, it feels like there w there will be an outcome here and this will be a thing in twenty, thirty, forty years that we talk about. Um and it's interesting to kind of have have a spotlight on that in the moment while it's happening. So I I really recommend, and I I say this, you know, personally as well as professionally, uh, go check out this story, pick up a copy of the magazine. The story is the grand gamble of Shinji Hitori. Um, and yeah, Joe, I mean I said it at the top, but I I think the way you wrote this uh it doesn't read like a standard executive profile. You know, it really it feels much more dynamic than that. It feels extremely personal. Um, and I just think the story is in addition to being informative, is extremely charming and fun to read and has it has a really great narrative to it. So uh for all those reasons, everybody should go check it out but uh thanks for thanks for giving us the peek behind the curtain. Oh thank you Steven I appreci |
| Joe Thompson | ate that I'm only as good as my sources and in this case I had a good source |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . Spoken like a true journalist, Joe. That's that's a classic move right there. Uh perfect. Well thanks so much. And uh yeah, we'll uh hopefully hopefully get some feedback on the story for you soon. All right, super. Thanks, Steven. |