Auction Scandals, New Releases, And The Black Bay 58 Revisited¶
Published on Mon, 12 Oct 2020 10:00:00 +0000
We've got some good, old-fashioned watch nerdery for you this week.
Synopsis¶
This episode of Hodinkee Radio features discussions about auctions, new watch releases, and a revisit of the Tudor Black Bay 58 review. The show opens with the hosts sharing what watches they're wearing, including Jack's Timex LCD Q, Danny's vintage Omega Seamaster, and Stephen's Hodinkee IWC Mark XVIII collaboration.
The main discussion focuses on the autumn auction season, with Jack sharing insights from his article "Three Auction World Cautionary Tales for Watch Collectors," which examines fraud and authentication issues across different collecting categories including wine, furniture, and art. They discuss how these cautionary tales apply to watch collecting, the role of online communities in policing auctions, and recent auction results including two Philippe Dufour Simplicity watches that achieved remarkable prices of $662,698 and $455,000 respectively at Sotheby's Hong Kong.
The hosts then review several new releases, including the Omega Speedmaster Silver Snoopy 50th Anniversary with its animated caseback featuring Snoopy orbiting the moon, the Nomos Lambda in steel, the Blancpain Fifty Fathoms Desert Edition, and the Audemars Piguet Code 11.59 Grande Sonnerie. They discuss each watch's design merits and positioning in the market.
The final segment revisits Stephen's review of the Tudor Black Bay 58, with James and Cole joining to discuss whether the review has held up over time. They examine the watch's sizing, gilt dial treatment, snowflake hands, and overall versatility. The conversation concludes with thoughts on the newly released Navy Blue version of the BB 58, discussing how Tudor is building out the Black Bay 58 as its own product category and speculating about potential future variations.
Links¶
Transcript¶
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| Jack Forster | Certain kinds of watches do certain kinds of things to certain kinds of people. Like I feel like chronographs have the potential to bring out the worst in a watch designer. People seem to be unable to resist adding just like that one thing that the design totally doesn't need. Dive watches really bring out the puritanical in people. You know, you look at a dive watch, you say to yourself, okay, dive watch, this is a purpose built instrument designed to fulfill a singular purpose. It must tick all of these boxes in order to conform to the international standard for dive watches and anything, anything that is even remotely superfluous to this singularity of purpose detracts from the purity and integrity of the watch and makes it an exercise in falsehoods, lies, and marketing. A soulless contraption devised only to separate the foolish from their money. And okay. Um |
| Stephen Pulvirent | you said so much in those two letters, okay Hey everybody, I'm your host Stephen Polverant and this is Hodinky Radio. Over the last few weeks, we've had some amazing guests on the show and, we've also done a call-in show giv,ing us a chance to answer some of your questions right on the air. But we're gonna go a little old school with things this week and focus on conversations with just our editors. There's been a lot going on in the watchworld, we're getting ready to head into what most of us would think of as the busy season, heading toward the December holidays, and there have been plenty of new releases, and we're also starting to enter the fall auction season. So I got Jack and Danny into the virtual studio with me to sort through all of this. Jack offers up some key insights into the sketchier side of the auction business as well as gives us a detailed look at one of today's great watch related artists and a new project that she engaged in with Automar PG. While Danny's here to help me digest the onslaught and new releases that are gonna be hitting retailers over the coming months and kind of just keep me up to date and keep me honest on what's happening in the new release space. After that, you're gonna hear our second week on the wrist revisited segment. If you remember, a while back, uh, we did one of these with the Tudor Black Bay GMT review that James had done, and we figured we'd follow that up with another take on a Tudor classic, the Black Bay 58. Uh, if you haven't read my original review or seen the video, we'll link it up in the show notes, you should go check that out. But I sit down with James and Cole and we kind of walk through the reviews step by step, talk about how our perceptions of the watch has changed, and even reflect on what's new in the world of the Black Bay 58, most notably the new Navy Blue version that came out this year. I still love this watch. I think there's a lot more to say about it. You'll hear I'm kind of long-winded, but I think it's a watch a lot of people like and I think it's worth it. So knowing that we got a lot of ground to cover, I'm gonna leave it at that and let's get into it. This week's episode is presented by Grand Seiko and the new 2020 season special editions. The pair of special watches are inspired by the end of autumn when the first frost settles over the forest floor, referred to as Soko in Japan. For more, stay tuned or visit grandseiko.us.com. Hey guys, how you doing? Friday afternoon. It is Friday. Jack, you did you didn't do anything this week, did you? Uh you know, a little this, a little that. Uh I actually uh I actually got to see Jack this week, which is only the second time I have seen Jack Forester in what six months. Uh Jack Jack was in the office signing some uh Accutron books uh for our friends over in the Hodinky shop and uh got got to actually have like a face to face conversation with Jack for the first time in a while. It was pretty nice. Bet you're jealous, Danny I'm j I'm very jealous. I was just about to say extremely jealous. Well we'll we'll we'll get the the band back together uh hopefully Multiple. All all the bands. We have to get all the bands back together. All the bands. So many bands. We'll be like uh one of those like weird super groups from the from the like sixties or seventies. Okay, cool. I'll uh I'll go with that one. Maybe not better. The traveling what's what's their faces? What's what's that band? The traveling Wilbury'.s Thank you. Oh that, was a good |
| Danny Milton | band. We like that. I don't know that the Partridge family has aged that well. I I prefer George Harris and Bob Dylan and uh and uh Tom Petty. |
| Stephen Pulvirent | This is the end of the day. This is what the people come to Hodinky Radio for is to listen to me babble about Geor George Harrison side projects that I uh can't remember the names of. That's that's what keeps the people coming back week after week. Uh all right, so before we get in the real meat, we gotta give the people what they want |
| Danny Milton | So I'm wearing my uh thirty four millimeter Omega Seamaster today. Little warmer than it was yesterday, but I just love this watch. Um if anyone hasn't seen, I wrote a little article about it um a couple weeks or maybe a couple months back at this point. It's hard to keep track of time, but yeah, I love this watch and um yeah, just makes me happy. Very nice. Jack, how about you |
| Jack Forster | ? I'm actually wearing the uh Timex L C D Q that I wrote up not long ago. Yeah. And uh I'm I'm having a blast wearing it, I have to say, for some s um, you know, I strap it on and uh the years fall away and it's the nineteen seventies again. Was it the nineteen seventies? Yeah. It's the nineteen speaking of the nineteen seventies and the Partridge family is on the radio. Oh boy. I think that's a fun one. I'm um I'm very glad you're wearing that watch. Yeah, I'm having a great time with it. Uh you know, it it it is what it is, as they say, but what it is is a really affordable uh nostalgia trip uh that even leaving aside questions of price is something that you can just enjoy And it's uh you know, it's nice to kind of I mean I love the heavy, complicated stuff with tremendous amount of rich history that speaks to the length, depth, and breadth of highrology, but uh every once in a while you just want to have a good time |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . I I think that is there is no better message, I think, in 2020 uh for watches is like sometimes you just want to have a good time. Like you can buy something expensive, you can buy something inexpensive, something complicated, something not complicated, but just like you know, considering how crazy the world is right now, if you're gonna wear a watch, make it make it one that puts a smile on your face. Like have have a good time with it. |
| Jack Forster | Yeah. Yeah, you know, and uh it's uh it's also a nice reminder that uh you can take watches seriously without taking yourself seriously. Yeah and uh you know that's that's that's not a bad thing to remember either. How |
| Stephen Pulvirent | about you, Steven? I'm I'm rocking the uh Hodinky IWC Mark eighteen collab. I've been wearing the hell out of this watch. Put it on a fabric strap recently. Not the OEM strap, but but a different fabric strap. And uh I just love it. Like it's it's it kind of like it scratches the same itch that my my vintage explorer scratches, that my 1016 scratches, but it's a modern watch. It's a little bit bigger, weighs nothing because the case is seritanium. You pretty much can't scratch it because the case is seritanium. So like it's it's great. Like I don't have to worry about it, but it's also very simple. Every everything you need, nothing you don't. Uh which which really speaks to me. Alright. So we got our watch collections in the books. Uh let's start digging into stuff. I I want to talk about auctions first. Auctions are my favorite, my favorite thing in the watch world. Like more than any of the trade shows, whatever. I like going to Geneva for the auctions. I like going up to Midtown and having all the Europeans come into New York for the auctions. Jack, normally this time of year, uh you and I would be getting ready to take our annual uh trip over to Geneva to do any number of things, GPHG stuff, uh cultural council for the FHH, but that always culminates in the auctions. Uh, and we've gotten to attend some pretty fun ones. And also to be honest, I was kind of looking forward to taking Danny to some auctions. Uh I feel like Danny, you'd get a serious kick out of this. Uh so here's here's to hoping that things open back up soon and maybe in the in the spring we can the three of us or some combination of us get uh get over to Geneva for some some auctions. But it's it's auction season, boys |
| Jack Forster | . Hodiniki just in time to not go anywhere ever. T |
| Danny Milton | rue. That's right. I got to go into the office very briefly and then go nowhere. Then stay exactly in place. And you're forced to hear everybody's nostalgic war stories about how great it was to go to Geneva and how great Yeah, |
| Jack Forster | we're the we're the we're the salt and the wound line item on your uh on your C V. It's a reminder every day. It's okay |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . I mean, Danny, just to just to keep keep keep on that path for a moment, if you'll if you'll bear with me here. You know, one of my favorite things about the auctions, and Jack, corre,ct cor merect me if you disagree, but it's one of those strange times where really the whole watch industry comes together. Like you'll see executives from Automar P Gay and Paddock and Rolex at the auctions. But at the same time, you see all the dealers who, the vintage dealers who are out and about. You see some of the top collectors in the world. You see the people who are the auction infrastructure themselves. Like I've seen Christie's reps at Phillips auctions and Sotheby's reps at Bonham's auctions. And like you you really get to see like the broad spectrum of personalities and perspectives and politics of this little world we're in all play out in real time with dollar figures attached in a room. And it's like I personally |
| Jack Forster | I find it pretty electrifying. Yeah it's uh it's uh super weird sometimes to see all those people together in the same place. You, know you know you kind of feel like an elementary school kid running into one of your teachers outside of the classroom. You're like, no, no, no, you you don't exist outside of that |
| Stephen Pulvirent | building. That's very true. I never thought about it that way, but you're you're spot on. Um you know, I I think, Jack, I wanna I wanna start our discussion here really with this story you wrote this week called Three Auction World Cautionary Tales for Watch Collectors. And this I think gets into the weirdness of the auction world. And I wonder if you can give us like the quick, like, TLDR version of uh of this story, just for for folks who haven't read it yet, which they should. We'll link it up in the notes. But uh give give us give us a quick recap here. |
| Jack Forster | Yeah, I uh sure. The uh uh first of all, the title is misleading. Um there it's actually two auction world cautionary tales and one uh furniture dealer uh cautionary tale, but I hope uh you know people won't give me too much of a hard time for that. So uh what it is essentially was uh uh it's a look at three sort of scandals that broke in three very different realms of collecting uh that'll have that have almost nothing in common except for um you have extremely good fakes being produced by an extremely good knowledgeable faker who absolutely loves what he's faking, which I think is actually a prerequisite to doing a good fake. You actually this is weird with the weird paradox, you actually have to be in love with the the real thing in order to make a good fake. Um there's a lot of money involved in all three of these scandals. And there is a sort of willingness to suspend disbelief on everybody's part that kept each of these three scams, you know, kind of going for years and years and years. And this is not to say at the outset, this is not victim blaming at all. I mean, the reason that scammers are are successful at scamming is because they're really, really good at it. You know, nobody who's ever been, you know, taken in any kind of con should you know feel like it reflects on their character because, you know, it doesn't. The people who are trying to fool you know what it is that you were looking for and they give it to you and you know quite naturally you um you know you tend to go for it. But I do think that there was an interesting kind of parallel between all three of these, you know, particular scandals and kind of what goes on in watch collecting as well, obviously, because they're you then you know what you have in watch collecting is uh as and in watch auctions is a situation where you have extremely high value items which in many cases were series produced which are relatively easy to fake or to uh you know, it's or it's relatively easy to take something that's close to what people want but not what they want and turn it into what they want. You have potentially a great deal of money involved, so there's a tremendous incentive on every side to kind of perpetuate the fiction if in fact a fiction is going on. And uh, you know, these sorts of things can can be very interesting to watch just because I think the thing that it illustrates more than anything else is the degree to which people want to be part of a great story. You know, it almost doesn't matter whether it's true or not as long as it's a rich and compelling narrative and you feel like you are part of something that excites you. And in every case in all three of these cases, one had to do with wine, one had to do with furniture, one had to do uh with somebody faking old master paintings which, you know, as I got into the story, it's both very difficult to do on on a certain level and very easy to do on a certain level. Um you know, in all three of these cases you had people producing these things who uh were so passionate about them that it actually bled into the quality of what they were faking. And the people who were supporting it, you know, people validating these things, you know, quote unquote experts, auction houses and collectors themselves, everybody had a huge stake in being perceived as an expert at a huge financial stake, and were deriving a huge amount of pleasure in going along for the ride. And uh, you know, seeing that sort of thing go on uh to me is intriguing and it's an interesting lens through which to look at watch colle |
| Stephen Pulvirent | cting. That's really fascinating. I mean Danny, you're you're of the the three of us the kind of newest to this this dynamic, but in in your experience, have you have you encountered any of this kind of kind of behavior in your reporting and just like being a part of the watch community |
| Danny Milton | ? A little bit. You know, I've gotten to do some auction reports since I've been here for auctions that were either happening virtually or in person from afar that we didn't get to go see, and I've sort of learned not to take things at face value, and I think I've learned it the hard way, and I know that Jack and I have had offline conversations about this where he's sort of let me know you know in the wake and I'm not gonna call out specific watches but it's situations where a watch is presented as having uh bezel that matches the dial or um whereas if you look closely at the pictures, you'll actually notice that the original bezel is pictured as sort of an accoutrement to the photo of the watch. So it's sitting there sort of off to the side in this nice picture, but nowhere in the description of what's being auctioned is the watch being, you know, advertised as watch with, you know, replacement artificial bezel. Um and then, you know, my first sort of, you know, welcome to Hodinky moment was writing that Which is a great learning moment for the record. It's a great learning moment for me, and I know that Jack sort of let me know who a lot of the players are in that world and what might go on. And you know, there's a lot more it's not necessarily fact-checking, but you just have to be aware that there's a gamesmanship. And so that that's sort of what I've learned a lot so far. |
| Jack Forster | There's a couple of things that really fascinate me about this whole situation. The first is that it's really freaking terrifying to uh be a watch writer because we all have to be generalists. And what that means is no matter what you write about, there is somebody who is an expert and they are going to be scrutinizing what you wrote uh looking for mistakes because it's fun to uh, you know, I mean that's that's it's the detective work is fun. You know, it's not even necessarily malicious. It's just it's just uh, you know, it's in it people these are people who have uh uh a basic interest in everything being correct and all of the I's being dotted and all the T's being crossed. And uh you have to you have to realize that and you have to go into everything that you do if you're a watchwriter with a little bit of humility and uh you know a sense of realism about uh the limits of your own knowledge. Um and I think the second thing that's really interesting about it is the online watch community is really, really good at policing auctions. I don't know whether this is true of, I mean, I don't collect, you know, $7 se,ven thousand dollar a bottle vintage Bordeaux or and I certainly don't collect twenty million dollar old master paintings. Disappointing but my sense Yeah. I failed on so many levels. Personally, socially, financially. Um what was I think? Oh yeah, uh it's it's uh the the online watch community really scrutinizes things uh very, very, very closely, and I think the auction houses know that and it helps keep everything and everyone honest. And you know, there are always situations where um it's always possible to be mistaken. You know, there are always situations where somebody says, oh hey, I'm gonna call this out, you know, this was not a uh this this is not a legitimate watch and they do a little bit more research or somebody who knows a little bit more than them takes a look at the same lot and they say, you know, a couple of days later, hey, you know, my bad uh my my mistake, I called this out as uh you know a fake or a Franken watch and it's not. But that's part of what keeps things exciting. You know, I mean there's a a tremendous dynamic flow of information whenever an auction cat catalog comes out, you know, the watch internet just uh lights up like a Christmas tree. And I think that the fact that the watch internet is in general really does want to collectively make sure that uh everything is correct. Uh helps keep you know it helps keep everyone honest. It certainly doesn't prevent fraud. Um that would be that would be impossible. But the level of scrutiny is really high, and I think that's a nice it's nice to acknowledge that. It's nice to recognize that there are a lot of people out there who work very hard to make sure that uh corrections do take place when they need to |
| Danny Milton | . Well the one thing I actually think that' reallys interesting from a positive perspective is especially in the case where these aren't a high level, you know, groundbreaking uh auction pieces, you can track them, you know, especially if they come come up for auction before. I like that it's a tangible object where you can sort of track it through different auction houses over the course of you know ten or more years. And that was one of the situations where I found out is when researching a piece just to make sure that you know everything is what it seems to be, you can actually look to see if that watch ever came up by looking for the reference number or so on and so forth. And to be able to actually track a single watch's history through the auction circuit is to me that was something I had never done before. |
| Stephen Pulvirent | We could probably talk about this in in kind of a theoretical sense for forever, but I want to touch on we got today our first kind of taste of results of the fall season. So uh Sotheby's hosted their sale in Hong Kong uh the day that we're recording this uh and a pair of Philippe Dufour simplicities achieved um I think maybe the technical term is bonkers prices. Is that maybe the term, the term of art? Uh Simplicity number 100 uh sold for just over $660,000, $662,0698 is the full US dollar price uh at the current conversion rates. Um and you know, it's it's a 34 millimeter simplicity, so generally the less desirable size, but uh it's number 100 that's engraved on the movement. There were only supposed to be 100 of them. He upped it to 200, now it's going to be 221. Um so I get why collectors are in on that. And then we have another 37mm simplicity um in white gold, which sold for another crazy price, not quite as crazy, uh, but a hair over $455,000. So uh it looks like at the very least the market for super high end independent watches is is hot. Uh is that is that a fair take |
| Jack Forster | ? Yeah, yeah, I think so. Um you know the stuff that uh the stuff that's special is special, people still want it. Um it kind of all of these things kind of perform on the basis of their own merits and not necessarily you know following the larger sort of macro trends in the auction market. Um by the way, uh I just looked it up, and if you got on uh apparently if you got on the early list for Philippe Dufour Simplicity, you could have one for around 34,000 bucks, which uh you know we all thought was banana's money back in the day. Um |
| Stephen Pulvirent | there's no question that these these are some of the most incredible watches in the world. Um I've been very lucky. I've seen probably seen probably a dozen of these, maybe a little shy of a no, probably about a dozen of these in the in the metal, which is pretty crazy when you think about the the percentage of the overall run that is. But uh it's spectacular watchmaking. Like it's it's I mean Jack, I think you'd probably agree here. Like this is this is no nonsense watchmaking at its at its best. Um and it's it's kind of encouraging, I think, to see the interest in them. Um, but to me, the craziest thing is until 2016, not a single one of these had appeared at auction, and I'd have to go around the numbers. I probably should have done it before we sat down to record, but uh you know, we've seen probably a dozen of them, maybe 15 of them, come up for sale over the last four years, maybe a little less, maybe like ten, but like not an insignificant number. Um despite the fact that, you know, they he's he'd been making them since two the year two thousand and it took sixteen years for a single one to come up for sale |
| Jack Forster | . Yeah. Yeah. You know, you don't see a ton of them in the wild. You just don't. I mean even you go you go someplace like the GPHG and it's not like every other wrist has a do for simplicity on it. And uh they are you know I, mean he set he set the standard, I think, for for independent watchmaking, for creating uh an absolutely meticulously beautifully finished, extremely tastefully done time-only watch. He also did something really valuable, which is show the next generation of of um independent watchmakers that it was actually possible. And he had a lot of company in terms of independent watchmaking. Uh you know, uh back in the the late nineties, the early two thousands when the watch internet was just breaking, there was a huge huge, huge, surge of interest in independent watchmaking because suddenly everybody could see this stuff. Uh you know, you could if you were just a sort of a rank and file, you know, uh guy like me who just bought his first Seiko five, you could you could actually look at incredible high resolution pictures of DeForce simplicities and crazy stuff like you know the early work from VNE Halter and the first generation Ulysses Nardan Freak, which is not you know quote unquote independent watchmaking anymore, but it was back then. And you know, it was just a it seemed like a world of incredible, incredible possibilities and I think that um the fact that the internet came along at the same time that Internet they had a lot first of all I think it had a lot to do with the way internet um the Internet had a lot to do with the way independent watchmaking, you know, took off like a rocket. And I think that it also gave people a taste for it, a desire for something unique, and a desire for something with, you know, the artist's imprint on it. And you look at the prices achieved by these Dufors, it's because they're Dufors, you know, I mean, uh, which is not something that exists independent of their qu you know inherent qualities as objects. But uh there's a a romance to watch making. We all love the idea of the uh genius toiling away in isolation and producing at uncertain intervals objects of unparalleled beauty. And that's like, you know, we were talking about stories before. That's the story you're part of when you have a simpli |
| Danny Milton | city. Yeah, someone who doesn't have you know a ton of experience in in this realm? It's one of the rare uh situations where, especially in the auction world, where it does the prices going up and being at this level somewhat make sense. Whereas you often see watches come up for auction and the reaction is I can't believe such and such watch is going for such and such price because at one point it was a mass-produced watch that anybody could have, so so on and so on. But this being sort of the exclusivity, the limited number produced, the fact that you don't see them, like you said, Stephen, the fact that 2016 was the first time one ever came up, you can see that if one were to come up, someone would want to jump on that. And it's so um the craftsmanship that's associated with it, the reputation, uh, the independent nature. I mean it all it all fits. You know, it's not something that you you look at and you go, how could that be? You kind of look at it and go, huh, you know, that that that that makes sense. That that that fits. Totally, totally agree |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . And we'll luckily get another chance to see the interest in Dufour. Uh it because we have this special piece coming up uh at Phillips in November. Uh it's part of this new series that that Dufour is releasing to celebrate the twentieth anniversary of the Simplicity. Uh we'll link that up in the show notes. We don't really need to talk about it now, but uh maybe in in a little less than a month we'll have more more DuFour news to share. Uh with that, I wanna I wanna take a turn here because we're we're starting to run a little bit low on time here, but uh as as promised, I want the two of you guys to to kinda catch us up on new watch releases. So So I feel like I keep saying this on the show. I'm sure everybody who's listening to this thinks I'm a broken record at this point, but like I keep waiting for things to slow down and they just aren't. Uh the pace of this year is totally different than in any previous year. And like you guys mentioned, I've been I've been a little bit heads down working on the Hodinky magazine, so uh I'm obviously paying attention, I'm reading stories, but I I haven't had a chance to dig too deep into some of these these pieces. So I thought this could be a good chance for you guys to catch me up. So what I'm gonna do is we'll go through these releases and I want you guys to basically give me the elevator pitches on these watches. And not not like you're trying to sell them to me, but like you have like, you know, let's say 20, 30 seconds each to give me what you think are the most important things about these watches. Does that does that work for you guys? Sure. Let's start with the Omega Speedmaster Silver Snoopy 50th Anniversary watch. Maybe Danny, you wanna you wanna kick this one off? Because I know I know you wrote the watch up initi |
| Danny Milton | ally. Yeah, this one is just fun. I remember when I uh I got the press release and I was just like I read it and when I got to the the the actual fun part I kind of lit up. I was like oh this is different. This is a obviously this is the uh the Speedmaster Silver Snoopy fiftieth anniversary watch. It's basically uh the third uh silver Snoopy edition but this one has a silver dial uh and it's blue accents but the most amazing and incredible thing about it is when you turn it over it doesn't just have a display case back. It actually um has sort of a mechanical animation to it in some way. So what what's going on is Snoopy uh in a uh his own ship is connected to the chronograph hand so when you engage the chronograph Snoopy takes a trip around the far side of the moon. Simultaneously the Earth is also displayed on the back and that's connected to the running seconds hand. So when you turn the watch over, the earth is constantly rotating and does a full rotation each minute. Um there is also um some sort of metallicization process or metallization. I'm not exactly sure how to say it, Jack, I'm sure you'll be able to correct me. Where the moon and I I saw a video of this, so I I haven't seen this watch in the metal yet, but the moon, the way that it it has been cr crafted has this sort of three-dimensionality to it. So when you turn the watch, it's really an incredible thing. I encourage anybody. I don't want to link up that video um that Omega posted, but it's really it's really something to see. Wow that's quite an elevator pitch. We're a big building |
| Jack Forster | I'm kind of ready to buy one of these too. We just miss we said that that was that was we w we went from the lobby all the way up to the to the hundredth floor. It's it was it w the elevator the ele |
| Stephen Pulvirent | vator got stuck. I forgot the elevator got stuck that's the button you pushed the hold button. I I also love this. I'm I'm gonna go for this one. I love the idea of Jack criticizing Danny for being long-winded here. That's that's a great one. The idea listen, the the idea of me criticizing anybody for being verbose, I okay. That's that's fair. Awesome. Uh Jack, you got you got anything to add to that? I th I feel like that's a pretty pretty good summation of this guy |
| Jack Forster | . I just want to I want to tell a little story. Um several years ago well quite a few years ago, my oldest son wanted to order a kind of expensive model starship. And I was kind of like, eh, I don't know, I don't know. It looks kind of expensive. And he looked at me and said with real feeling, Dad, come on, the engines light up. And I was like, ugh. Okay. Um You get it, right? Like, and that's how I feel about this this this uh Snoopy Speedmaster. I mean Snoopy goes around in his little spaceship. What the hell more do you want? And the Earth goes around at the same time? I mean o,kay it's, a complete nightmare from a sort of, you know, fine watchmaking precision standpoint. You shouldn't stick extra stuff on the chronograph train if you don't have to, but who cares? Snoopy goes around in a spaceship around the moon. D |
| Stephen Pulvirent | one. This week's episode is presented by Grand Seiko. One of the things that has long set Gran Seiko apart from other watchmakers is the way that the Japanese brand takes inspiration from nature. In particular, Grand Seiko's venerable seasons collection draws on the Japanese concept of Seki, or the 24 seasons, which mark key natural milestones present in the passing of each year. For 2020, Grand Seiko has released two new special edition seasons watches, both inspired by the Japanese concept of Soko or the end of autumn when the first frost arrives in the forest. The two watches pair different shades of sleek gray dials with bright green accents, referencing the colors of the Arashiyama bamboo forest in Kyoto, which is at its peak each year during Soko. One watch features a silvery dial and rich green accents to illustrate the forest during the daytime, while the other watch has a deep slate gray dial and almost neon green accents to illustrate the forest during the nighttime. They're very much two sides of the same coin, though each has its own distinctive charm. Both watches are powered by Grand Seiko's special Spring Drive Caliber 9R65, so you get a beautiful, true sweeping second hand gliding across the dial, adding to the poetic nature of the watches. Each also comes paired with a stainless steel bracelet and a leather strap so you can style the watch how you'd like. For more about Grand Seiko and the pair of Soko watches, visit Grandseiko.us.com. Alright, let's get back to the show. Let's go to the next guy here. Uh something a little a little more reserved. Uh let's go with the new gnomos lambda models, the steel lambda models. Jack, maybe you wanna you wanna take this one to start? |
| Jack Forster | Yeah, this is both a design and a movement story as is usually the case with Gnomos. It is a beautiful movement, uh finished to a very high standard in a I think a beautifully executed case. A little bit on the large side for Gnomos. I feel like they got a little bit of pushback about that in the comments. But you know, this originally came out in a gold case and it was like a twenty thousand dollar watch or something. And uh you can get any t to me, anytime you can get the same quality movement in a twenty thousand dollar watch that you can get in a uh what does this one go for? Uh seventy five hundred bucks. Yeah, I'm just um you'll you'll you'll bear with me, uh faithful listeners. I'm scrolling down to look at the price. Yeah, seventy five hundred bucks, you know. And uh it's a gorgeous piece of work from a real company with a real history. Um, I love the kind of sunburst pattern on the on the movement plate. And uh, you know, like I said, any time that you can get work this gorgeous uh from a movement perspective, uh, for you know, less than half of what it costs you in a precious metal and like a kind of you know, sort of just normal well off person can afford it. Um, I'm all for it. I don't know if it's gonna work for everybody is the only thing. The uh because the bezel is so thin and because it's a little bit big for Enomos, um Um that could be you know kind of a sticking point for some folks, but forty point five millimeters is not hu |
| Danny Milton | ge. No, that it's true. I mean I I got to wear this a little bit and experience it in the f felt a little bit more like 42, and the lugs made it feel a little bit bigger than that. Um, and I agree with the lack of bezel, especially. I think I noted the white dial where's a little bigger, but for me, this is the sort of uh distilled bauhaus design that Gnomos is known for in a lot of ways, the way that the the dial is laid out, uh I think it's very h you know, the design is just sort very on point. But this is basically a third size in the line. They already had uh the larger forty two millimeter, they had a thirty nine millimeter, now we've got this forty and a half millimeter. And like Jack said it brings it back sort of in line with I think what Gnomos is known for, which is packing value and whereas the the former was sort of only in gold and uh upwards of twenty thousand dollars this is much more in line with what I think people love and expect from Nomos overall |
| Jack Forster | . I also s I I have I have to say, you know just, to give cr uh give credit where it's due, the movement fills out the case really nicely. It's a thirty two uh thirty two millimeter movement, you know, sort of the standard size roughly for a hand wound Swiss mechanical watch movement is around thirty millimeters, so this is getting a little bit into almost pocket watch territory. I mean, you know, plus two millimeters, but |
| Stephen Pulvirent | uh it's a it's a great fit to the case. Yeah. Yeah. I mean I overall I've always liked the design of the Lambda. Uh this is this is interesting. And I think at this price point in the in the you know seven to eight thousand dollar range, it's in it's an interesting offering because it's it's obviously a premium over over what most of Gnomos does, but uh you're not getting anywhere close to Langa territory. Like they don't have to worry about that competition. It's kind of like kind of splits the difference between quote unquote like a traditional gnomos and the entry level uh manga pieces. Um all right, let's uh let's go for something totally different here. Uh I want to bring up the the Blank Pon 50 Fathoms Daydate Desert Edition. Uh this watch, the moment I saw a picture of it, I I think I like may have audibly said holy shit. Uh it's like it's such a cool looking piece. Um maybe Danny you,'ll you s'll start us off here. What's the what's the short version of this guy? |
| Danny Milton | Yeah, no, I I think this is the uh a desert dive watch. I mean you don't really you don't ever see that. I think I think the backstory is amazing. Um I know that it has some kind of uh historical background of of diving in Death Valley. I think that's amazing. I think the the design of it, uh the sort of gradient sunburst, sand effect dial, um it's very retro stylized. And I've I've worn a a few of these blanc ponds at the forty three millimeter size and it I don't think it really wears that large. It's felt pretty comfortable to me, and this thing just is sort of on its own in terms of its styling and I would love to see this thing in the metal. I just think it just has this it evokes a desert. I mean you look at it and you just go like yeah that makes sense. I this should be called you know the desert you know addition and it makes perfect sense to me. The des |
| Jack Forster | ert diver. You know there's uh certain kinds of watches do certain kinds of things to certain kinds of people. Like I feel like chronographs have the potential to bring out the worst in a watch designer in a way that no other complication does. There's like it seem people seem to be unable to resist adding just like that one thing that it uh that the design totally doesn't need. And uh dive watches, dive watches really bring out the puritanical in people. You know, you look at a dive watch, you say to yourself, okay, dive watch, this is a purpose-built instrument designed to fulfill a singular purpose. It must tick all of these boxes in order to conform to the international standard for dive watches, and anything anything that is even remotely superfluous to this singularity of purpose detracts from the purity and integrity of the watch and makes it an exercise in falsehoods And |
| Stephen Pulvirent | okay. Um, you said so much in those two letters |
| Jack Forster | I mean you know you go back and you look at dive watches from the nineteen sixties and you know yes they were purposeful yes they were designed to fulfill a function. Yes, they were serious instruments. But people did, you know, owners and designers allowed themselves to occasionally have a little fun with them. And uh I actually really like the Desert Diver. I think that it's a really cool looking watch. I think that I mean to look this is all person this is you know personal too I mean to me a sort of you know chunky retro-style dive watch brings back a lot of pleasant memories. I think that this is successful from a design standpoint. Of course, a desert diver, quote unquote, is, you know, kind of a contradiction in terms, but the watch was made, if I remember the article correctly, was made in homage to a dive that took place in 1962 in uh what's called uh Devil's Hole, I believe, uh in Death Valley. So, you know, it was connected to a kind of an interesting scientific expedition. And uh beyond all that, I uh I just like the sort of sandy gradient dial. I like the whole conceit of a desert diver watch and you know, like the like the L C D watch I'm wearing right now, I think that this one is potentially a lot of fun as long as you don't take uh as long as you don't take yourself too seriously and expect it to be something it's not. Yeah. |
| Stephen Pulvirent | All right, let's do uh let's do one more here. Uh I've got I've got a couple listed, but we're we're running short, so we're gonna do one more. We're gonna go for the big gun to finish things off. Jack, I'm gonna throw this one to you. The autumn RPG, code 1159, Grand Sonnerie Carrion Supersonerie. That is a mouthful for a non-native French speaker like myself. And wow, like what a watch |
| Jack Forster | . Yeah, you know, this is uh I wrote the article about this one and it reminded me just how few grands grand appetissonerie uh wristwatches there actually are and how few I've actually seen. I mean, um you don't see all that many minute repeaters drifting around honestly unless you go to you know, I mean Paddock Philippe had a big exhibition a few years back where they brought every single minute repeater that they had in their catalogue to New York and we got a chance to listen to those. Uh I think the video is still up on the site we can link out to it. Uh so you know, experiences like that are incredible, but I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times over the last twenty, twenty five years I've seen a grand et sonnerie, repetition minute wristwatch. Um uh you know you it's just it's just uh uh a very rare occurrence. And AP has a long history of making these. Um well they have a long history of making wristwatch versions of the Grand Sonnerie, um, which you know the very first one was uh made by Philippe Dufour and then AP got into the game, and they have been uh in it more or less ever since. And uh they do it extremely well. Um I think I would I mean there's five of these things that I think six hundred and seventy seven thousand, you know, a pop uh with a dial by Anita Porchet, by the way, whose work I've been admiring for twenty-five years. Uh you know, one of the best in the business and one of the people who helped put uh enamel dials for watches back on the uh back on the map. And her work is enthusiastically collected by uh her fans and aficionados, you know, the world over. And I think that it listen, this kind of thing, uh if you if you love complicated watch making, you love chiming watches, uh and you love a high art execution, top to bottom, and you can afford it, |
| Stephen Pulvirent | uh there's just nothing else like it in the world. Yeah, Danny, you've you've you have any thoughts on this gu |
| Danny Milton | y? It's obviously I I was I read Jack's piece and it it's so detailed. Uh for me this is just it's beautiful. I would love this is another one, as usual, you know, given the circumstances of the way things are, would love to be able to see this in the metal, but I also think that you know, say what you will about the Code eleven fifty nine, and I think people have said a lot of things that they will about the Code eleven fifty nine, but this seems to be a great uh vessel uh for a movement like this, um, as well as um a canvas for um the enamel work that's been done on the dial. Um just judging by the rarity of the movements, um, the fact that AP has been so uh entrenched in in doing this over at least the last you know twenty some odd years, um, it just seemed, you know, obviously you would assume at some point, you know, with them developing the new code eleven fifty nine that it would come into the watch and I think it just is a great uh a great package overall and I think, you know, I would just love to hear the chime. That's me that's my elevator pitch. Show me the chime |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . Yeah. I uh I agree with everything you guys are saying. I I think Danny in particular, you know, the the idea that the code eleven fifty nine being a great canvas for utilizing complicated, interesting movements and then doing kind of like brilliant dial work, I think is a is an interesting idea. Uh and I think it's it's something we should probably talk about in the future. Um but yeah, lots of good new stuff. Um like I said, I think there are probably many more we could talk about, but uh people just have to have to tune in in future weeks. Um I'm excited heading heading into fall. I think I think we are far from the end of this. I think we're gonna continue to see some big new releases, both the super high end and the and the more affordable end. Uh and I'm I'm excited for 2020 to kind of close out |
| Danny Milton | on some high notes. Yeah, if the silver snoopy is any indication of the type of put a smile on your face releases that uh brands are going for you know toward the end of the year then I'm I'm all on board for that. I love that thing. Snoopy goes around in a spaceship. He goes around in a sp |
| Stephen Pulvirent | aceship. Alright we'll we're we're gonna finish on that though I I hope we play that sound bite uh over and over and over again in future episodes. I need that just like on a on a hotkey. But uh thanks for doing this guys. I really appreciate it. And uh Danny I feel like I feel like we owe you an auction trip to Geneva. I'm gonna hold you to it. Really. Thanks guys and uh I'll I'll chat with you next week. Thanks Steven. Always fun. Bye Danny. See you Jack. See you Steven. Bye guys. And next up, I sit down with James and Cole to revisit my review of the Tutor Black Bay 58. Hey guys, how you doing? Yeah, pretty good. Not too bad. What's up, Steven? We got uh we got James here, we got Cole here. Gang's all here. Oh yeah. Let's revisit a week on the wrist. Let's do that. So uh we introduced this segment a week on the wrist revisited uh talking to James about his week on the wrist with the tutor uh black bay gmt um super fun watch still really popular uh and i think kind of the conclusion we came to was that that review held up pretty pretty well. I don't think much has changed about your feelings about that watch, right, James |
| James Stacey | ? No, not at all. Solid watch, great, great functionality, still doesn't really have any true competition. And I assume they're easier to buy now than when we publish that review. So |
| Stephen Pulvirent | yeah, it's a pretty, pretty awesome watch. Uh so we're we're gonna do something kind of similar today. Uh we're actually gonna revisit my week on the wrist with the tutor black bay 58 uh since that watch has been getting a lot of play recently uh with the release of the black bay 58 navy blue the second iteration of the b b 58 um so we'll talk about the new version kind of at the at the end here a little bit, but uh let's dig right into the review. Let's let's go right to the categories here. Um, the background to this watch quickly is is that it was released at uh Basel World twenty eighteen. Um people went absolutely nuts. Uh this and the BBGMT were actually released at the same time, which is is pretty astounding to think the Tutor dropped both of those watches not even like in the same span of time, but on the same day. Um it it really took the idea of Tudor making a heritage inspired dive watch to kind of like its logical conclusion. This is is essentially remaking the closest thing you you can imagine to an actual just like vintage tutor sub uh from the the 60s or 70s. People went crazy for it. Like I said, there were huge wait lists. Um I think at their peak, they were they were over a year. I think they're down to you know a couple of months now, um, two, three months. But uh yeah, this was for a long time. Like I would say this was the hot watch to get, you know, other than maybe if you set aside its its older siblings at Rolex, um, and maybe like Nautilus and Royal Oak, like other than those things, which still have in many cases two to three year wait lists. Uh this this is one of the hottest watches of the last couple years, and and it was really a pleasure to get to review it. It was a watch that I was excited by when I first saw it, um, which sometimes is the case, sometimes isn't the case, but um, you know, once I got my hands on it, it was it was really something I was excited to strap on my wrist and and put through its paces. So for the categories, let's start off with what we call the elevator pitch. So if you had to sell or explain this watch to somebody in in thirty seconds or less, uh how would you do it? And and for me, it it boils down to a couple simple things. I think it's this this watch is the closest thing you can buy on the market today to a vintage Tutor or Rolex Submariner. It's an amazing everyday watch that's built to the highest standards you can possibly imagine, and it has a great in-house movement uh all for a pretty reasonable and affordable price when it comes to a luxury luxury watch. That to me, those are the main bullet points. If you know that, you know enough about this watch. Uh what what do you guys think? Did I leave anything out there |
| James Stacey | ? No, I don't think so. I think it's a new tutor that wears like an old tutor. Yeah. What's new is old again |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . I like that. It's a new tutor that wears like an old tutor. I dig I dig that. That's uh much much more concise than me. You're getting out of the elevator faster than I am. Let's go to first thing. This is pretty self-explanatory. What is the first thing you notice when you first see or hold this watch, uh to me it's the size. This this watch, the the profile and the size and the feel when you pick this up. Um you know if you saw it just sitting in a in a vitrine or something you might not fully fully appreciate it but the moment you pick it up or put it on your wrist um the size and the profile of this of this case are just really astounding um it's it's so close to to a vintage sub um in a way that it like almost feels like a familiar old friend. Um yeah, I don't know what what what did you guys pick up on first there |
| Cole Pennington | ? I think um if I were like uh living on an island and we' notre reading things like Hodinky and watch media and I just saw the watch in front of me, the first thing I would think is man, I can't tell when this was made. Could be made twenty twenty, could be made nineteen sixties, fifties. It's uh it's anachronistic in in that uh it's a modern watch, but you know, you really really don't know when can't peg it in time, you know |
| James Stacey | . Yeah, I think that's fair. I mean for me it's the it's the size. I mean, like we've seen black bays before. Th there's nothing revolutiony about this one. You know, if you get down to the details and you start to see there's no date and they've kind of reworked all of the proportions, but it's the case proportions. It's the fact that it's substantially thinner than a forty one millimeter. Uh, you know, uh obviously it's a couple of millimeters smaller. I'm not sure the case width makes as big a difference as the uh lug to lug and the the thickness, but it's it's definitely the proportions, especially as soon as you have it in your hand, it just feels not so much that it feels smaller, it just feels right where it needs to be |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . Yeah, I think that's that's something that is worth digging into a little bit before we move on is is that idea that like it doesn't wear like a small watch. I think you know some people see like oh it's downsized from 41 to 39 like oh it's it's a small dive watch um I this this watch doesn't wear particularly small to me. It still wears like a like a hefty-ish tool watch. I mean, granted, that's coming from somebody who's often wearing like a 36mm 1016 Explorer or like a 35 or 36mm like vintage Grand Seiko or something like that. But um I don't know. I I think this watch still has some like heft and chunk to it, but in a way that that works. Like it feels right uh on on the wrist. I think |
| James Stacey | it still feels like a dive watch. It still feels like a sports watch. Um and it you know it I think yeah, I think it's the right size for for a dive watch. If you're gonna go without the bezel and make something closer to a ten sixteen, I think you you make the the move quite a bit easier to something like thirty six millimeters in terms of just wearability and dial size and legibility and the rest of it. Whereas this kind of splits the difference. Um I think that Rolex and Tutor, they understand that the sweet spot for a lot of this stuff is around 40, 41, 39, 40 for a lot of the the submariners. Um, but there's a the you know a lot of it, I think it's it's not so much what the case within, it's it's that the things are in balance. Um makes it makes it wear properly while still being kind of it has a nice weight to it. It has the a bezel that's really great. It has good water resistance. Uh so you're not taking a lot of sacrifices for the smaller size |
| Stephen Pulvirent | Let's go let's go to historical nuggets. So uh you know, digging into the history of this watch and and all of the inspirations for this, you know, s I think some people see this and say like oh it's it's a remake of the original tutor dive watch it's a remake of an old school tutor and and I think it's worth pointing out that that's not that's not the case. Uh it's it's kind of a mashup of a bunch of different bits of tutor design language and and reinterpretations of that design language. So, you know, if you put it next to a big crown, which we we did in the review, you can see the photo there. We'll link link to the review obviously. Um like the bezel is very similar. Granted it's got the gilt tones instead of this the silver tones, which we'll talk about, but it's got that red triangle. It's roughly marked out the same way. Fonts are pretty similar. However, and it has no crown guards on the case. Cases are pretty similar in size. However, it has snowflake hands, which didn't come around until the 70s. It has, you know, straight text and a shield logo on the dial instead of the rose logo and curved text at six o'clock. So it's it's kind of a mix of these different inspirations from Tutor's history. And I I think you can kind of look at this watch in certain ways as sort of like a one watch uh history lesson on tutor. Like you can you can kind of pick it apart and and trace all these things back and build yourself a nice little timeline uh building from from the original tutor divers in the fifties uh all the way up to the the black bay from 2012 and then on to what they're doing today |
| James Stacey | . I would agree. I mean I don't have that much to add to it. I think it's uh it' |
| Cole Pennington | s Yeah |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . Up next, let's let's go with best design choice here. Uh and I'm gonna throw to you guys first on this because I have some pretty strong feelings and I don't want to fully fully taint the conversation with them. So uh may maybe let's go Cole and then James. What what do you think was the best |
| Cole Pennington | design choice made here? Um I am not as articulate in talking about design as you are, so I'll keep this short and sweet. I love that they kept the red triangle. Uh they they included that. I think that little pop of color on what's otherwise, you know, black and gilt is is cool. And it's it's very throwbacky and and I dig that. And I think that could have gone wrong. Like people talk about the the cold tones. I know we'll talk about this later or whatever, but the cold tones in the new navy blue one. I think the character of the original BB58, a lot of it does come from the red triangle |
| James Stacey | . Uh for me it's the size of the hands. Um, you know, I think it it's also something that uh I don't think it's unfair for me to say that in the past Rolex has gotten this wrong when they change the case size of a watch and then they just don't really thread the needle the way they should with the hands. If you think about that generation of the uh the explorer where the hands were short the when they first went to 39 millimeters and they seem seemingly they they seem to keep the hand size from the 36. I think the fact that they obviously you have to you you're forced to to make a new dial and and I have it like taken a caliper to the markers and that sort of thing but I think the fact that they maintain the same sort of balance that you have in the other um kind of sub lineage, um, despite dropping down in case size, which could be you know, sometimes it's the kind of thing where it takes them a little bit of while a little while to get it right. I think they got it right the first time. Um, where you still get that really serious legibility. The hands make it all the way out to the minute markers, but they aren't too fat, they don't take up too much dial space. Um, there's still a lot of negative space, uh especially with a black dial, that's crucial. So I think they did well with it |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . Great. Yeah, I'm gonna go I I totally agree with you there. Um and and I'm gonna go also with something on the on the dial, which is the the guilt printing. Um I think the choice to make this a quote unquote like guilt dial watch uh is a smart one. Um I'm pretty lucky that I I have owned both Matte and Gilt vintage Rolexes. Um and I didn't really get the appeal of paying more money for a guilt dial outside the idea of like obviously it's rarer and quote unquote like more collectible, but in terms of actual practical benefit, I I didn't get the appeal of a guilt dial watch until I owned one. Um there's something just so like deep and rich and charming about them, uh, versus uh a matte dial with the white printing. Uh something softer, uh it's it's it's a different experience. And I and I like, you know, that here you can get into essentially a guilt dial sub for, you know, 10% of the price of what it would cost you to get into a vintage guilt dial sub. Um and I think if this watch had, you know, this you know, kind of mostly black color scheme with white printing, I I I don't know that it would feel as warm and as charming as as it does this way. I know that this is, you know, the guilt, the amount of guilt on this watch is a point of controversy with some people. I addressed that in the review. Some people think this watch has too much guilt. Maybe the bezel shouldn't have been, maybe the hands, you know, there's there's there's definitely a needle to thread here, and some people think they did, some people think they didn't, which which we can talk about. But for for my money, I think the the basic pri |
| Cole Pennington | ce |
| James Stacey | I don't like two tone. I don't like guilt. I do think it's uh it's a lot to have it on the bezel as well. Um but I don't think that it's I think it's only seems like a lot when you look at one's the the vintage stuff that that isn't colored that way. As as a product in and of itself, as a modern thing where they got to do kind of what they wanted, I don't think they made any mistakes by making a black and and you know, with the gilt the kind of gold accents. Uh it also certainly they didn't have any trouble selling it. So I think they did a good j I think they did just a fine job with it |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . Yeah, that's fair. Uh I mean for for you, if they had gone gilt dial but not made the markings on the bezel gold, if they had left those kind of that, you know, basic kind of like silvery steel aluminum color. Would would that have been a positive change or a negative change for you |
| James Stacey | ? Uh probably neither. Like I think the watch, I as much as I like the watch, it was never really on my radar because of the the guilt. Strong stance. The blue one the blue one certainly fixes that. But at this point, like I you know, once you've been in this a certain amount of time, like you could you can basically just be as picky as you want. And the only real cost to me is I didn't have to spend four grand on a watch. Uh which is okay, certainly. Uh it's a gorgeous watch. I I think like I said, I think they did a great job with it. But uh as far as my my taste go, yeah, I don't I don't don't really have uh any I haven't I have yet to develop a taste for uh the sort of uh guilt attributes or or two tone and that sort of thing. I I'm |
| Cole Pennington | actually similar to you, James. Like I never I'm a Seiko guy, vintage Omega Tool Watch guy. Like guilt was never on my radar, especially like guilt subs. However, this is the one watch that changed that. Like this is my daily wear watch and I use it like a tool watch and it has guilt, but it doesn't bother me. Like I think guilt signals uh opulence luxury. The the context of it is no longer like like it was in mid-century Rolex. It now guilt appears on more luxury watches, so I think that kind of throws you off. But if you kind of shed that and and just ignore it, it becomes a a usable tool watch too, just the same |
| James Stacey | . Oh, without a doubt. I'm I'm I like I said, it's it's more just a question of developing that taste and I haven't yet. You know, it w a couple of years ago I would have said I s I felt the same way about gold watches in general and now I adore gold gold watches. So you know, give me time to change my mind. I could come around on it. Change my mind. Perfe |
| Stephen Pulvirent | ct. Speaking of changing, let's let's go with that for our next category. What you would change here. Uh maybe maybe we'll start with James on this one. Um if you could change one thing about this watch to to make it either better or more to your taste either way, um what what would you change |
| James Stacey | ? Um I yeah, I would do I would do without the guilt. Uh quick quick answer based on our last discussion. We don't have to go probably a lot deeper into it. But I think I think it I think it would look really good and and a little bit more modern and I don't think that that it should replace the guilt, but I think that a black one with with kind of a white silver scheme would also be really rad. |
| Cole Pennington | Nice. Cole, how about you? Um I will throw out a sort of unpopular opinion. Like for a long time I hated Snowflake hands. Like I couldn't stand that it they didn't point to something. Interesting. And I know you know I know the history behind them. But like I hate unless it's a I I don't like an arrow on one like something angular and then flat on the other side. Hour hand flat minute hand angular. So that bothered me a lot. So what I would change is I would go to Mercedes hands. However, I will say when like at six o'clock or twelve thirty, when it lines up, dot snowflake sword, it is ah, it's just fantastic. K magnifique. But other than that, like I would rather have aside from those two times per day, or maybe okay, uh nine fifteen or quarter to three. But aside when when everything's not in line, I think the snowflake hands are nah, they take some getting used to. So I would go Mercedes if I could change something on here. Go back to the original. Give me some continuity instead of, you know, jumping around in time. Okay. That's fair. |
| Stephen Pulvirent | Yeah. Um for me I've gone back and forth on this a lot. I I think I'm gonna go somewhere with James here and say I would swap the guilt bezel for a non-guilt bezel. I like the guilt on the dial. I think I would go guilt dial non-guilt bezel. Uh looking at the watch side by side, you know, which I'm doing right now with uh an original Tudor Big Crown. I don't know there's something it helps offset the dial more it helps it pop I I don't I don't know exactly what it is but uh I think that would be that would be my thing uh the only other thing I would consider is and we'll talk about this in a second as well. Uh I would make the bracelet uh with more micro adjustments. Um the tutor bracelets have the the tutor bracelet that that is on this watch, um, because the Pelagos bracelet's obviously different. Um, but the Black Bay bracelet has three micro adjusters. I think it needs five. Uh, personally, um, I have a really hard time getting this bracelet to a size that is comfortable for my wrist. And this this is something that in in the review I said that I think you need to buy this watch on the bracelet. It's available on a bracelet, on a fabric strap or on a leather strap. Uh I said that like if you don't buy it on the bracelet, you're you're kind of doing it wrong. I stand behind that, but with the caveat that you should also buy either a fabric or a leather strap for it, um, or wear it on on one that you already have. Um I a couple weeks ago swapped my I I own a Tudor Black Bay 58 now. You know, spoil spoiler alert, I was gonna bring that up at the end, but uh I own a Black Bay 58. I wear it all the time. Um I was wearing it on the bracelet for the first few months, and I just I've taken links out, added links in, moved the micro adjusters around. For whatever reason, like I can't quite dial this bracelet in to exactly the right size for me. I can get it to where it's like 90% comfortable, but not 100%. Um, and so I swapped it onto a fabric strap and I love it. Um, I've actually been wearing the watch more now on the strap. I think it looks great on the strap. I'm excited for when the weather cools off to put it on like a beautiful tan uh leather strap, uh like a lot of folks do with vintage subs. Um yeah, I think I think maybe changing the bracelet would would be one way they could impro |
| Cole Pennington | ve this watch. So you didn't put on any extra pounds during the quarantine thing that kind of filled out your wrist somewhere and and made it fit better, hu |
| Stephen Pulvirent | h? |
| Cole Pennington | One thing that no one brought up, which I know everyone loves to talk about, is the faux rivets on the bracelet. No one said they would change that. Oh yeah. I I actually just don't care. Like I don't care. Whatever, you know |
| James Stacey | . I couldn't. Yeah, exactly. Same. I see that comment all the time and I can't even reply to it. Like if you're if you're that picky about something, I it's also because I guess I'm not a bracelet guy. Like I I I would buy this watch on the bracelet, probably pop the bracelet off, just put it on a NATO. Um but yeah, I I can't imagine being like I love this so much except for these uh little dots on the bracelet. Those those ruin the whole thing for me. I'm I'm not at that level of uh I guess maybe maybe maybe it's uh uh like a guilt the guilt thing bugs me enough, but the rivets don't. I d I don't know. Everybody's brain's a little different, but I I can't get behind that uh as being a deal breaker for a watch |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . Yeah, I would agree. I mean I guess I guess maybe it fits into the same thing with this like Fautino, right? Like there are certain people who just don't like anything that that references something that was once functional that is now purely aesthetic. And like I understand that impulse. Like believe believe me, I am enough of a purist about most things in my life that like I am I am very sympathetic to that kind of like drawing a line in the sand over something arbitrary. I think anyone who knows me would would agree with that. But uh I don't know. Maybe it's maybe it's 'cause I like vintage vintage bracelets and and I'm just used to seeing it, but like I'm with you guys like You know |
| James Stacey | , if this is if this is the if if if you're if you don't like vintage reissue throwback dive watches, this isn't the watch for you. Yeah. It's simple as that. It's just other watch. Yeah, that's true. It's just other watches for you. But I mean like they they set out to to essentially remake a watch from nineteen fifty eight. But with modern touches that followed their like current brand DNA and that includes rivets on the bracelet. And that might just mean it's not the right one, but yeah, I I'm I'm with Cole. It's a it's a a non-issue for me. I wouldn't notice it if I own the watch. |
| Stephen Pulvirent | Yeah. All right. We we're we're going to do two more categories, then we're gonna wrap things up, and then we'll we'll talk about the Black Bay uh 58 Navy blue. So uh the next category is gonna be what we call branded. Um so if you were gonna challenge another brand to make a watch uh like this, their sort of version of this watch, who would it be and what would you want them to make? And and for me, the answer is pretty pretty simple. Uh I would love Omega to do a Seamaster 300 in this style. Uh a Seamaster 300 that's not 41 millimeters, that's not quite as thick, maybe that's like toned down a little bit. Um I know they did one as part of the trilogy set uh that I think would get us most of the way there. Um but yeah, I would I would love to see Omega release a competitor to this because I also think I think it would sit price-wise between uh the Black Bay 58 and a Rolex and Mariner. You know, you've got the Black Bay 58's a little over $3,000. The Rolex and Mariner's just a hair under $8,000. I think Omega could do something in the like 6,000 to 6,500 range. And I think it'd be really compelling. I think they could kind of own that space for people who say like, well, I've got a little bit more money to spend than the tutor. I don't necessarily want to spend, you know, after taxes, you know, you're looking at almost eight grand on or almost nine grand on the uh the Rolex. So like let's let's find something somewhere in the middle. And I think Omega could really just like crush this. I think they'd absolutely knock the ball out of the park. Um what what do you guys think for |
| Cole Pennington | this one? Is that how people is that how people buy watches though? Say like I have a little more money than the tutor. I would go watch first. Like I um but anyway, I mean that's not that's not totally to the point. I agree with you though. Something I wouldn't I wouldn't have it be driven by price, but I would be have it it would be driven by position. Um for me, the the brands that I think I would love to see make something like this. Uh I would love to see JLC make something like this. Uh they did this ladies' Wchat, the Dolphin. They did the Barracuda and the Dolphin. They're totally forgotten. They were kind of like the mid-century dive watches the JLC did. The Dolphin was this ladies' watch, and it was smaller. But I would love to see like a 39mm uh rendition of that. And also that would come in a lot less than a lot of other JLCs. It really is. It's a solid piece. In addition to that, like the same kind of category, and I'm going to pronounce this wrong, so please go easy on me in the comments. And also if you guys know the correct pronunciation, correct me. Favre Labua. Favre Labua. Fav Favreba? Yeah, exactly. That's it. Is that right, James? That's how I would say it, but I I could tell you if it's right or wrong. Favre luba. They made uh the deep blue. So they made this monochromatic deep blue from the sixties that has a crosshair dial that kind of gives me like the elegant tool watch mid-century vibes. And I would love to see that be reproduced to the same degree that this BB58 is. Uh so yeah, not not totally mainstream, but I think the idea of a handsome recreation of a mid-century dive watch could uh could really work for these two brands |
| James Stacey | . Uh yeah, I mean my mine would be Blanc Pong. I think uh I think that they've they've been they've been coming so close a couple times they they're like they're in they're playing the right game. Um but if you look at something like the Barracuda, oddly enough, uh also use the same name as spelled with a K. Um but this was a you know a 40 millimeter L E at 500 pieces. I it's one that people don't really talk about. But like if they if they had taken that inspiration and then a year or two later made a series steel 40 millimeter or 38 millimeter 50 fathoms that still has the ceramic or the uh sapphire bezel. Um but none like I would go no date, none of the tan loom like just make make the basic one and this one was fourteen thousand one hundred dollars I think if they really wanted to if they really wanted to bring some people to their brand you make this for eighty five hund00 with a really good like an 1151 or whatever the no-date version of an 1151 movement is. So something with like a big power reserve and a bunch of other like Blanc Pon, Omega derived technology in the movement. And then you just make it like a matte black dial, that dope bezel, work really hard to make it thin and 200 meters water resistance, and then just be very chill on how much text you put on the dial. And no the bear kuda was perfect because it just says Blanc Pon fifty fathoms automatique. It doesn't need anything more than that. Um I think that if yeah, I think if they literally just took the the BB fifty eight philosophy and applied it to uh a fifty fathoms, they'd be so close. I think they came really close with the like we came really close to essentially making this watch with RLE. Um, you know, a little bit of a different case style, an entirely different bezel. I think that watch has already been made, so we don't have to talk about that one. It's perfect. Man, would I kill for one of those? Um but yeah, I think if you if you basically if you imagine uh a a less vintage inspired um fifty fathoms' uh Barracuda, uh, I think that's where we would land. And if and if they really wanted to I think they might have to take a hit on it. They're a big c big company part of a big brand. So I think they could they could form a loss leader to take some mind share away from the brands that really kill at about eight grand. We know who we're talking about there with the submariner. Um but if they priced it really aggressively, they could move enough models to make that that make sense. Megusta mucho. And also isn't it pronounced blank pain |
| Cole Pennington | ? Yeah, co |
| Stephen Pulvirent | ol. That's the uh that's the official uh that's the official pronunciation. Yeah. Two two words. Yeah. Uh all right, so to wrap to wrap this section of this up, um let's let's talk about I have a simple question for you guys. Could this be one watch for life? Could somebody buy this watch, own this watch, never buy another watch, and be very happy? Uh James? Ye |
| James Stacey | ah, I my guess is a lot of people have. Um whether whether they're watch guys, I also think this is probably the kind of watch where like if you were really into watches about ten or fifteen years ago and then for whatever reason kind of dipped out of it. If you popped back in and and by chance your AD or or whatever had one, I feel like this is the one you would grab. It's going to feel like a dive watch that was the right size from 15 years ago or 20 years ago. And I feel like you could buy it, you already know what tutor is, so like you And then you just wear it and you do so without without without ever going on Google and typing in Black Bay fifty eight and and and reading a week on the wrist or something like that. Uh yeah. I think that the these are these sorts of watches, which is what Rolex really s Rolex and Tudor really appeal, really do so well at is um making a watch that like a well heeled non watch enthusiast might pick up and wear for like forty years and then give to a a kid or put in a sock drawer. And that's how we get all those stories from you know, watches from the sixties and seventies where that actually happens. And I think that's still true to today. You could definitely see like a uh you know some someone who knows what they want, a a water resistant watch that they don't ever have to take off, but they also don't really have to worry about wearing to the office or whatever they do after work or on the weekends. And I think this could absolutely be that sort of watch. The same way people treated submariners, you know, before they became insanely collectible th |
| Stephen Pulvirent | ings. I I totally agree with you. I I don't think I have anything to add there. I completely agree. Uh C |
| Cole Pennington | ole, where where are you at on the That's literally the same same answer? I I will say though, like one thing that's interesting is that I don't see many out in the wild when I think I should. I think it is definitely the watch. So the exactly the thing, like like James said, the same ideas as a sub, but just for people who are either younger and don't have the cash to throw around yet. Um but it can easily be a one-watch for life. And also one one thing to note is that it has the same sterile case back as a sub or Rolex. So you can engrave something, give it to your whatever, children, wife, husband, something like that. Like it really can fill that role of uh the occasion watch. It's good because it it kind of satisfies watch people, non-watch people, people looking for a good deal, and does it all really well. It's a watch for anyone and could be the one watch to rule them all |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . There we go. Uh perfect. Well but before we move move over to talking about the new navy blue version of the BB58, which is kind of the coda to to all of this. Um, you know, I mentioned it earlier earlier in the segment, but uh I I actually ended up buying one of these watches um, you know, a couple months uh after um or I guess right right around the same time that we published the review. Um and and I'm super happy with it. You know, I've been wearing it for for the better part of six months now, on and off, wear it a couple times a week. Um and and I think, you know, I can say with a little bit of hindsight now, like I feel like my review pretty pretty well captured my thoughts on this. You know, whether whether they're right or wrong is a different story, but uh you know, having having worn the watch and and rereading what I said about it back then, I I feel pretty good about it. And I and I mean Cole I know you you own one of these as well. Um you know has has your opinion on the watch changed substantively since you since you bought it versus what you thought about it beforehand |
| Cole Pennington | ? Uh actually, yes, believe it or not, it has. Um I when when I bought it, like I said, I couldn't get over Snowflake hands. Also, I will say that I'm pretty like if everyone loves something, my initial knee-jerk reaction is to be skeptical of it, you know, like hmm, like it, like Rolex or whatever. I'm like, hmm, interesting. So I was, you know, 50-50, bought it, and now I absolutely love it, cherish it, adore it, will wear it I'm completely blind to all the flaws that it has. That that I once uh maybe thought, you know. So so so yeah, I would say that that having it on the wrist made me fall in love with it even more and I I all that skepticism just melted away the second it got on the wrist |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . Well let's let's quickly chat about the the BB fifty eight Navy blue. So this watch came out early July and uh kinda like took the watch internet by storm, uh Tudor smartly I think kinda like seated them out there with people the day they they dropped. So I don't know about you guys. My Instagram feed was basically nothing but Navy Blue Black Bay 58s for a couple of days, um, which was was cool, a little bit exhausting, but I think ultimately uh a strong move for uh for Tudor. Um James and I both got got to see them in the metal. Uh James wrote uh two great stories for the site, both of which we'll we'll link up in the show notes here. So maybe maybe let's start with James here. Um, you know, obviously the the big news here is the watch is blue, you know, it has a blue bezel, it has a blue dial, everything is silver tone, no more guilt. Um, but then as far as specs go, the watch is the same, it's the same size, same movement, same everything. So for you, what is what does this watch bring to the table that that sets it apart from its predecessor |
| James Stacey | ? I mean the color. There's not a lot there. It basically gives you an option if if you didn't care for the other one, which is which is why there's you know cars with minute differences and also just different colors on cars and there's lots of you know think think about how many versions of the same watch like Omega will produce in terms of color and dial and uh and you know gold and not gold and and the rest of it. And and I think this is just something that Tudor does very slowly. Uh they're not having any trouble uh selling these. They probably wish they could make some more or or or make sure that more people could get them as far as demand goes. Uh and and my guess is that that'll hold with the blue one. But there's gonna be a group of people who wanted something, maybe they already own one, five, ten other black dial dive watches. And they wanted an alternative. And that's certainly where I would land myself. I I have a couple black dial dive watches that I'm okay with. I like them. The longer I'm in this um fascination, the more I really started to appreciate color. And blue, I think, is like one step adjacent from black. Like I'm talking oranges and silvers and and and you know brighter stuff. Uh, but I think this blue works super well and it maintains like all of the praise we had for the the the black uh version over the past 40 minutes or whatever is is because it's such a versatile thing and I think they changed the color without changing its versatility. If you still wanted to have this as your one watch, blue works just fine. Unless you're a type type of guy that really hates blue, right? At which point there's a black one. So |
| Stephen Pulvirent | I think that's what the blue one does. Yeah, I I totally agree. I I think what what surprised me most seeing it in the metal was after, you know, having seen the press photos, there was a couple hour period there between when the the embargo lifted and we'd seen pictures and when, you know, the one that was sent to me showed up showed up in the mail. And the blue is a particularly versatile shade of blue. I think it it really changes in the light nicely. Like you put it under bright sunlight and like it looks blue, like it looks bright. You're just walking around the house inside like you know, normal indoor lighting. And like it really does have a more navy blue look to it. And I I think you can get away with with wearing it uh in a way where like people aren't gonna be like, oh my god, look at that blue watch. I think it just like like looks a great, great dive |
| James Stacey | watch. Yeah, I think it's chill. I think it's super handsome. It's also um be being a blue watch with a blue dial, uh, sorry, being a blue watch with a blue bezel, uh really changes the way that it takes straps. Um if you've had blue watches that don't have a matching bezel, maybe it's steel bezel, maybe a black bezel. Um it it I mean these things that the the the black one is a strap monster to begin with. You can put anything on it and they rock. Uh and I think the blue even more so. I, you know, I I live in jeans and denim, you know, full fulfilling my Canadian identity. Uh and uh and I, you know, this this is this is kind of the Good analogy. Go |
| Cole Pennington | od analogy. I I I think I like that. I was to be quite honest, I was just a little tired. I was thinking like, how can a one color change, you know, set the internet on fire and everyone, you know, posting about it. And then I remembered back when like uh when I was a teenager, I collected all the color variations of the uh Seiko Monster. Like I was super stoked to get the black monster in the male than the orange monster. So I would imagine for people now, you know, with a little bit more money and a little bit more uh refinement and nuanced taste. This could be a series just to collect all of the watch uh all of the Tudor Black Bay fifty eights, you know. So like I get the excitement now if I look backwards to when I was doing the same thing, buying one watch in one color and then getting super excited about the same watch in another color. So I I I get it now, but uh it's just a color change, sure. But it it does mean something. It gets people excited. And and I'm on board with that, you know |
| James Stacey | . Yeah, I mean the other thing to consider is like like quote unquote boring watches. We all know this. We know them really well. Boring watches that are really well made, that's what sells. Yeah. Is there an orange dials submariner? No. Do you think it's because Rolex forgot that orange is out there or yellow? No, it's because they did some sort of little study and nobody in their office wanted one. They just said, Well, I already have a black one, it's perfect. There's one guy who's going to get you. It would be. But lots of other brands make it. But I don't I don't like I think there's there's a there's a level of like considered stoicism that you can even simply constitute as as being a bit boring or bland or mundane, that that makes it it a a square kind of down the middle of the road uh product. I think that that's what that's what makes them both an enthusiast product and a wide market product is that blue is special because it's it's just it's it's not black. Yeah. It's not b |
| Stephen Pulvirent | lack. Yeah, I think you you've both touched on this, but I I think one of the interesting things here is that it it shows that Tudor is building out the Black Bay fifty eight as a product category. Like it's no longer that the Black Bay fifty eight is a one off product that sits within the Black Bay lineup. There are now there is now a Black Bay 58 collection. Uh and I'm I'm curious to see where this goes over time. I think, you know, we've talked about this and I I know, you know, folks in the collecting community, there's been lots of chatter about this about whether or not the BB58 was a one-off, similar to like maybe the P01, right? Like is this a a one-off heritage kind of throwback product and eventually it'll get phased out. It's only going to exist in one model. It's a limited thing, and then Tutor's going to keep on making the 41mm. I think Tudor is going to keep making the 41mm black bay indefinitely, but I I think it's interesting to see that they're building this as kind of a parallel product line. Um and I also think it's worth noting that the Black Bay blue was the next Black Bay to be released after the original Black Bay, the Burgundy one. Uh so it'll be interesting to see if some other things like I don't know, a full-on two-tone steel and gold model, a version with a steel bezel, which I know James would love. Like, are we gonna start seeing more more and iterations on this uh over the next couple years? Who knows if if this will get built out? But I think it's it's interesting to see that they're at least moving in that direction. |
| James Stacey | Yeah, it they must have a lot of data too about every every one of the 41 that they made. They they know what where it went and what colors were kind of good and what market. Like you said, uh to me, I I would adore one. Give me the black or the blue with a steel bezel. I just love the way steel bezels take scratches. Um it just if you if your plan is to keep the watch really like for a long time, a steel bezel kind of has a few scratches and you're kind of like this isn't as nice. And then it has a ton of scratches and it's perfect. And I think that's what I always like about them. It's what I like that uh Explorer 2s and uh Doxa Sub 300s and that sort of thing is they have these nicely exposed steel bezels which come beautifully finished, either mirrored or if if you're with the Rolex, that incredibly complex vertical graining uh that you know can't be it shows every scratch forever, but once you get enough scratches that it's just m it makes it more yours. Uh and and I like the way a steel bezel looks. I'm I'm still waiting for a P Zero one in blue, actually |
| Stephen Pulvirent | . That's a that is a different podcast altogether, Cole. And one that we should do, but that that is a different show, the P Zero One show. You' |
| James Stacey | re waiting for a P01 and blue, and I want a uh a a blue a BB58 blue GMT with an orange GMT hand. Ooh, Caribbean. I don't think either of us are getting our way. |
| Stephen Pulvirent | Yeah. Alright. Uh when when tutor calls for the focus group, uh we'll know who not to send uh to to Geneva for this one. But uh thanks thanks for doing this guys. This was awesome. Uh this is a fun watch to revisit, not least of all because I have one on my wrist right now. But um yeah, appreciate you doing this and uh we'll have to think about what uh what review to dig into next. Well we've done a few of them so I'm su |
| James Stacey | re we can find one. But yeah it was a treat to be |
| Stephen Pulvirent | on. Awesome. Thanks, guys. |